It is almost 20 years on since the Good Friday Agreement, which was a peace accord to recognise that there are two traditions who are polar opposites on the national question. Those who consider themselves Irish and support the unification of our country, and those who consider themselves British and who support the continued division of our country.
It is an international agreement that both states would respect the will of the people and unite the country when that is the expressed democratic will of the people but only under the condition that purely peaceful means is used to achieve this and that the status quo remains in the meantime.
A referendum to ascertain the will of the people can be held once every 7 years but only when the British state wish it.
It also acknowledges that there has been discrimination and abuse of power in Stormont in the past and imposes special conditions on how the assembly operates to prevent this reoccurring.
There is no prime minister, it is instead a shared position with one minister with the support of the unionist declared groups and one with the support of the nationalist declared groups. Everything has to be agreed or nothing is agreed which imposes a degree of cooperation to work.
Then there is the veto of concern, which allows 30 MLAs to block any moves which you would think would be another safety net but not too disruptive, but there remains no respect, no tolerance of one another’s community, culture and traditions never mind respect for aspirations on the national question and the result is log jam on many vital issues.
We should consider Stormont to be more of a rubber room than a parliamentary chamber designed to prevent our politicians from hurting one another’s community than to run a state’s affairs.
Having said that, much good work has been done, there is plenty of talent there and there has been successes in bringing inward investment, jobs and some economic growth in spite of all of the difficulties from being the only part of the UK which is also part of another country outside of the UK. Problems about to be exasperated when that country remains within the EU and the UK leaves.
This changes everything. Irelands position within Europe will be much weaker without Britain in its corner.
England will be building new trade relations with the rest of the world and had been supportive of the EU being an economic union including other commonwealth nations rather than a centrally controlled geographic united states of Europe.
Will a new economic union be formed over the coming years and would Ireland be better off in this than in the EU?
If not, Dublin will eat into London’s financial sector and the relationship will deteriorate along with the common travel area.
A border poll is coming, but we need to see how these things play out as presently neither London or Dublin know how these islands will look in a few years’ time.
The GFA allowed London and Dublin to shelve northern Ireland and get on with more pressing business.
I don’t know if it was deliberate but this has resulted in apathy and disillusionment in both communities in the north of Ireland, the feeling we are not wanted and not a part of our country.
There is only one parliament in Ireland and that is in Dublin.
As an Irish citizen living in Ireland, I expect the right to vote for who leads the nation I am constitutionally part off.
The US allows its citizens to vote in US elections no matter where they live in the world.
This is a denial of my rights as an Irish citizen living on the island of Ireland.
Let our politicians graduate from the Stormont training academy into the Irish parliament and let all of the Irish citizens on this island at least, choose who leads the Irish nation that we are supposed to be part off.
It is time our politicians were given their graduation day.
Jessica do you have any fixed positions on any issue?
There are a few things I would be intransigent on, but not anywhere near as many as your average unionist Robert.
“As an Irish citizen living in Ireland, I expect the right to vote for who leads the nation I am constitutionally part off.”
There is no such right. You are not “constitutionally part of a nation” (meaningless nonsense), you are the citizen of a state. And there is no “right” -for citizens living outside the state to vote for the head of that state.
“This is a denial of my rights as an Irish citizen living on the island of Ireland.”
See above. There is no such right.
“And there is no “right” -for citizens living outside the state to vote for the head of that state.”
I wouldn’t be so sure MT, the referendum for Irish people living outside the Irish state to have the right to vote for the Irish President is being held early next year and most predict it will be a Yes vote for Irish people worldwide, including in the North, to have the right to vote for our President. So Yes, in 2018 we may see potential Irish President Candidates coming North to campaign for votes.
MT, you cant dictate to Jessica or anyone what their rights are. You would think Unionists like you would get it into your skulls by now that you wont be denying Irish citizens our rights, you tried it before and you failed dismally. If your going to try it again then your simply going to fail again.
“I wouldn’t be so sure MT, the referendum for Irish people living outside the Irish state to have the right to vote for the Irish President is being held early next year and most predict it will be a Yes vote for Irish people worldwide, including in the North, to have the right to vote for our President. So Yes, in 2018 we may see potential Irish President Candidates coming North to campaign for votes.”
If there were already a right to vote in Southern presidential elections there would be no.need to have a referendum about it!
“MT, you cant dictate to Jessica or anyone what their rights are.”
I’m not dictating anything to anyone, simply stating facts.
“You would think Unionists like you would get it into your skulls by now that you wont be denying Irish citizens our rights, you tried it before and you failed dismally. If your going to try it again then your simply going to fail again.”
I’m not denying anyone their rights, Southern citizens or anyone else. What rights do you think I have the power to deny? You have a high opinion of.me if you think I have the power to deny rights.
Then I would call on them to have the decency to clarify that is their position and to stop taking our money for my families Irish passports.
“Then I would call on them to have the decency to clarify that is their position and to stop taking our money for my families Irish passports.
Call.on whom to clarity what? And what have passports got to do with it?
like the remaniacs if theres a close vote on the border they might want a replay.then maybe we could have the new plan being talked of the agreed ireland whereby the brits stay and ireland agrees.what makes you think voter apathy wont happen in a border poll.
“A referendum to ascertain the will of the people can be held once every 7 years but only when the British state wish it.”
But how will this work if the British state doesn’t exist in 10 years? or even in 5? I’m talking of course about the prospect of Scottish Independence or even the UK becoming a Federation. I suppose Irish Unity would be the only alternative if the UK were to go Federal because I cant see an semi-Independent Northern State lasting a week if our politicians are left to their own devices. Not to mention we’d be in control of our own economy and would be liable to pay our own way, hence maybe the prospect of losing the block grant.
Stormont is really a tool that is there to fill a vacuum. Hence the great fear from both Governments in Dublin/London at the prospect of it collapsing. I really think Joint Rule should be looked at. Its obvious the current status quo is unsustainable and with the UK leaving the EU there’s a very strong economic argument for closer integration with the South.
“But how will this work if the British state doesn’t exist in 10 years? or even in 5? I’m talking of course about the prospect of Scottish Independence or even the UK becoming a Federation.”
What difference would that make? Neither scenario would mean the end of the “British state”.
“I suppose Irish Unity would be the only alternative if the UK were to go Federal because I cant see an semi-Independent Northern State lasting a week if our politicians are left to their own devices.”
You do realise a federal state wouldn’t be much different for NI? Being part of a federal state doesn’t make provinces/states “semi-independent”.
“Not to mention we’d be in control of our own economy and would be liable to pay our own way, hence maybe the prospect of losing the block grant.”
Not necessarily, but even so, why would that make any difference to the referendum provisions?
:I really think Joint Rule should be looked at. Its obvious the current status quo is unsustainable and with the UK leaving the EU there’s a very strong economic argument for closer integration with the South.”
Good luck getting a majority of people.to support that.
“What difference would that make? Neither scenario would mean the end of the “British state”.”
Emmm, yes it would MT…..it would mean the end of the United Kingdom, hence the British state…..
“You do realise a federal state wouldn’t be much different for NI? Being part of a federal state doesn’t make provinces/states “semi-independent”.”
MT, your obviously joking here, right? There’s members of the House of Lords already drawing up potential plans for a Federation, do you know what Federation means?….You think Scotland and the North having all powers except for defence and foreign relations doesn’t make us semi independent??…..In the same Lords report the House of Commons would basically be powerless, it would only have around 100 members…..Enoch Powell always said the only way to secure the Union was to be governed from London. That’s the last thing Westminster wants these days when it comes to NI.
“Good luck getting a majority of people.to support that”
Why would we need luck? Unionism is becoming a minority, sensible Catholics and Protestants will see the damage brexit will do and will see that closer integration with the South is logical and necessary. If anything Unionism is in need of a bit of luck. I honestly fail to see how this failed state in the North can appeal to anyone but the most bitter of Unionists but I think its days of existence is seriously limited, its been an economic/social disaster, this needs to be highlighted as much as possible in the time ahead. I don’t think Irish Unity will happen in one step, I think closer integration with the South will happen before that.
“Emmm, yes it would MT…..it would mean the end of the United Kingdom, hence the British state…..”
No it wouldn’t. What makes you say that it would?
“MT, your obviously joking here, right?”
No.
“There’s members of the House of Lords already drawing up potential plans for a Federation”
There are? What members? On whose authority? Links, please.
“, do you know what Federation means?…”
Of course. Do you?
“You think Scotland and the North having all powers except for defence and foreign relations doesn’t make us semi independent??”
I’m not sure what “semi-independent” means, but devolving all powers bar defence and foreign affairs hasn’t been proposed, won’t be proposed and won’t happen.
“…..In the same Lords report the House of Commons would basically be powerless, it would only have around 100 members…..”
What Lords report? The number of members doesn’t bear any relation to its power.
“Good luck getting a majority of people.to support that”
“Why would we need luck?”
Because without it you’ll never get enough people to support it.
“I don’t think Irish Unity will happen in one step, I think closer integration with the South will happen before that.”
Why?
“you’ll never get enough people to support it.”
Never say never MT
I fully expect Scotland when it gains independence will choose to remain in an economic union with England – what other choice does it have really? England will be trying to make this as attractive as possible over the next 5 years but I expect it will achieve it with other commonwealth nations and global friends such as the US.
I have already said, my preference would be for a united Ireland within this new economic union, and our relationship with the EU defined by the relationship between the two unions if the EU survives it.
Ireland would be a single sovereign and independent state and an equal part of this new union.
Ireland best interests would be the strongest possible trade links with the US.
Jessica, you’ve made it clear your views and distaste for Stormont – do you have such distaste for the Dail? What’s the realistic alternative to Stormont? Direct rule from London? Stormont won’t be a museum, it won’t be bull dosed – Under current political conditions, “graduating” into an Irish Parliament is unrealistic and a “dream” – it’s not going to happen in the short term.
“A border poll is coming” – is it? When? According to Brokenshire and Villiers before him, there is no evidence to accentuate a border poll – this is what we would expect them to say as they cosy up to political unionism – if it were to happen, Would a border poll succeed in the current political climate? Where’s the blueprint and roadmap proposing what a United Ireland will look like? Where’s the economic argument? (I know some stats fly around on this but it really needs nailed down). How many people are going to vote in favour of a border poll when they haven’t a clue what they would be voting for – in terms of what society would look like? Many people were duped with BREXIT and the fact a long term strategy was not present in the aftermath – would this prejudice their voting in a border poll? I think it was Chris Donnelly who stated that calls for a border poll are in essence a “Hail Mary throw” – I agree with him – more caution needs to be taken – the conditions need to be created for a United Ireland – a United Ireland should not be reactionary but instead a well thought out long term plan. The ground work needs to be done to cultivate support and drive momentum for a United Ireland. Don’t forget many Nationalists need to be convinced of the merits of a border poll as well as the rest those from a variety of ideological beliefs on the island. Simply calling for a United Ireland is in my opinion “politically immature” and void of reasonable long term vision – if a border poll prematurely happened and it failed, would this doom the operation for a United Ireland for another generation?
Not the Dail, but I do have distaste for how it treats its citizens, north and south.
Stormont will be a museum, unless you believe a 6 county state is economically viable and in which case it is you who would be unrealistic.
As to when there will be a border poll. The guaranteed longest date before it can be called would be 2021, the next census.
But there are other things we need to achieve before hand.
The all island forum on post brexit Ireland needs to go ahead.
Irish citizens in the north need to have a vote in the 2018 presidential elections which will be another turning point.
I would say the earliest a border poll should be called would 2019 if the outcome of the brexit deal is resolved by then.
So that would be my estimated timeframe.
It is not if, but when.
As for a blueprint or roadmap and the economic argument.
First of all it has already begin, approval from the people will be the very last and most difficult step.
Tourism and other areas already operate on an all island basis. Our health service is cooperating, with children’s surgery now going to Dublin.
More and more areas will gradually integrate as will the infrastructure.
There will be a new interconnector I think by 2019 which will mean all of the power on this island is on a single grid. At the moment all power on this island comes via moffat I believe so we are already interdependent on one another on both parts of Ireland.
Our businesses and economies will always be interconnected. No one can deny this.
I would like to see Ireland 100% self sufficient on renewable energy and to invest in this area. Through innovation in our schools and universities to develop new technology in this field and to assist other nations in achieving renewable self sufficiency.
I am impressed with how Iceland have used their natural resources to develop new technology which has made them wealthy once again without even having to impose the level of austerity which Ireland has endured. We should learn from them. They have created a tourist industry on the collapse of their once most wealthy financial sector.
I would like the maze project to go ahead, a connection to the M1 motorway and a museum showcasing all narratives of the troubles built around the hospitals at the maze. This would easily be the most visited tourist attraction on this island out performing anything in Dublin.
There is an unused train station there which could be reopened giving direct links to Belfast and Dublin by train as well as the motorway slip road.
I would build the once planned stadium at the Maze as well as conference centres for international visits, the planned conflict resolution centre and hotels.
According to Travel Ireland, there is currently 9Mn visitors each year, with enough demand to fill another 5000 hotels which we cannot afford to build.
Through unification, I would borrow to invest heavily in economic growth,
I would expect to triple this 9 million figure within 8 years.
I would also like the land along the motorway at the Maze incentivised to encourage inward investment for US companies to come in and develop corporate business and quality jobs in the technology services sector.
I would build new train tracks and have a warehousing section which would be used to attract drop shipping companies such as Amazon into Ireland from where there are good routes into Europe as well as the UK.
I would like to see an Irish NHS.
I would like to see the Dail reformed to move away from the Westminster style model it currently is in to a new style more suitable for Ireland.
Eventually I would like Ireland to have our own currency, our own financial sector and finally to be a fully sovereign nation.
I would like unification to be through agreement among all of our people, so we can have our own independence day which all can be comfortable with and not a sectarian one sided celebration.
I could go on, but you get the idea.
Do not fear a border poll. Ireland will be reunited. I do not know why the current southern administration and its media are so vehemently against it.
I have my suspicions that they have been bought and have given too much control over to London and left themselves tied, though if that were the case, Brexit may offer a way out.
The Gardaí whistle-blower inquiry revealed that Gardaí stations and Dublin airwaves were bugged and the same company that handles this for MI5 in the UK was used to do this. You can be sure that all telephone calls in Ireland are monitored by MI5.
Around the same time Cameron gave a 7Bn load to Fine Gael.
I would also remove all of those in power around the Irish justice system, everyone involved in this would be gone.
I would build a new Ireland for the Irish people that will not be the puppet to any nation, especially England.
As you say, we can but dream. But it is a good dream and we should see it happens.
Perhaps on a practical terms your British citizenship is of higher value to you than your Irish one?
From your British citizenship you receive a health service, a police force to protect you, a education system, road network etc etc.
While you reject them you also at least receive the right to vote for a electoral representatives in Stormont and Westminister.
The Irish citizenship that you receive isn’t much more than a travel document, in fact the biggest practical benefits of the Irish passport/citizenship are the benefits you get because it is a EU citizenship.
I don’t mean to rude or hurtful but these are the realities and I’m not one bit surprised that you are angry at how the southern goverment treats its “citizens” in the north.
I appreciate your concern Scott and I am accept the Britain does offer all of these things.
But if my country chooses to abandon me, then I will die abandoned before I will accept they have any valid reason to, other than cowardice.
Is it any wonder our Taoiseach struggled to hold his head up during the commemoration of the Easter rising.
He may not consider me a part of our country, but at least I can hold my head up high.
We get those I[posed on us and we pay for them, and, incidently, the south pays for our roads along with many other things, even down to a “museum” for the Orange Order up the Cregagh.
Jessica, are there ‘irish’people who favour partition?
AG, there are English people in London who wanted London partitioned after Brexit.
We have to do what is best for the nation as a whole not be dictated to by those with selfish interests.
Would you not agree?
“From your British citizenship you receive a health service, a police force to protect you, a education system, road network etc etc”
Scott, are you saying that Irish citizens don’t get these things??
“a police force to protect you”
I hope your not referring to the RUC, they were doing the opposite.
“education system, road network”
So does the vast, vast majority of citizens in Europe…..
The Last time I looked Scott the GFA clearly says the citizens in the North can be Irish, British or both. Jessica (and myself) are clearly Irish and Irish alone. All the things you mentioned are paid for by taxpayers and I pay taxes, so these things you mentioned aren’t given to me, I pay for them, so its inaccurate to portray them as some sort of gift or benefit from Britain to little old me and that I should be in some way “grateful”….
If me or Jessica visited the South we would automatically be entitled to all the things you mentioned because we are Irish citizens. So therefore the Southern Governments does have a duty to protect the interests of its Citizens in the North, why do you think they have a say in every major agreement here? Its because of nearly a million Irish citizens in the North. They are even having a referendum next year to give us the right to vote for the Irish President, which is likely to be given.
I really do fail to see your point Scott but you appear to be making out as if the likes of me and Jessica are the “strangers” or “foreigners” here and that this is Britain. It’s not Britain, this is Ireland, that’s obviously the reality. Just because Britain occupies this part of Ireland doesn’t mean it ceases to be Ireland. We’re the natives here, not the British Government.
Well said Ryan
It is like Unionism is a form of brain washing handed down from generation to generation to make what is plainly obvious to the rest of the world invisible to them.
“The Last time I looked Scott the GFA clearly says the citizens in the North can be Irish, British or both. Jessica (and myself) are clearly Irish and Irish alone.”
Your identity is up to you and always has been. Fluffy waffle in the GFA didn’t alter that and doesn’t make any difference.
“All the things you mentioned are paid for by taxpayers and I pay taxes, so these things you mentioned aren’t given to me, I pay for them, so its inaccurate to portray them as some sort of gift or benefit from Britain to little old me and that I should be in some way “grateful”….”
I think all of us lucky enough to have been born in an affluent liberal free country should be grateful. Our lives are blessed when compared to the majority in the world living in poverty or in authoritarian or backward regimes.
“If me or Jessica visited the South we would automatically be entitled to all the things you mentioned because we are Irish citizens.”
So would citizens of lots of other countries.
“They are even having a referendum next year to give us the right to vote for the Irish President, which is likely to be given.”
But I thought they already had that right? That’s what Jessica and you said. Are you now admitting you were wrong?
” It’s not Britain, this is Ireland, that’s obviously the reality. Just because Britain occupies this part of Ireland doesn’t mean it ceases to be Ireland. We’re the natives here, not the British Government.
It’s the UK and “Britain” doesn’t “occupy” this or any other part of Ireland.
Ryan
I believe you’ve picked me up wrong.
I’m not saying you don’t belong here or that you shouldn’t get the benefits, of course you do and should you were born here and I count you and Jessica my countryman even though you reject my country (the UK).
The point I perhaps was poorly making was that we have a peculiar system here under the GFA, someone born here can be British, Irish and both.
Even some one who only has a Irish passport/citizenship and was born in NI have “effective” British citizenship. You receive and quite rightly so all the benefits of being here as someone who has a British passport/citizenship.
What I am asking is if you are born and live in NI and say for example have dual citizenship, which one provides you with the most tangible benefits. I hear what your saying that if you are in the south you would receive these benefits but as I assume you live in the north so the public services you avail of are here so they are the ones you and I draw benefits from.
I’m currently thinking of getting a Irish passport due to BREXIT and I’m just wondering beyond the EU benefits what does my new Irish citizenship actually get me.
It’s not a Gardi that comes if I’m in trouble it’s a British PSNI officer.
If I’m sick the NHS looks after me not the southern health service.
If I’m unemployed it’s the British welfare system that supports me not the ROI.
I even have an input into how these public services and many other issues are handled through the votes I can cast for Stormont and Westminister. The Irish citizens in NI have no right to vote in the running of there country, which seems to me as a pretty second rate type of citizenship.
I hope the referendum for giving the presidential vote to all Irish citizens goes through as frankly it’s the least that the ROI can give its citizens. Even at this considering the President is a largely figurehead position Irish citizens in NI have no voice in the dail and can not influence the direction of there country.
I’ve heard many people on this blog complaining that the south treats northern Irish citizens as second rate and I don’t blame them at all. Can you imagine if they tried to stop British citizens in NI voting for Westminister. It just wouldn’t happen.
I understand that citizenship has an emotional dimension as you feel a cultural connection. Perhaps I’m looking at this too much from a “what’s in it for me” mentality but when I weigh up the two citizenship that I’m going to have when I get my Irish passport, the British one seems to have all the benefits.
The Irish citizenship that I can get only seems to be a travel document and the best bit about it for me is the EU citizen benefits that I get through it.
I truly am not trying to be rude or wind anyone up here. I’m just asking for a practical appraisal of the two citizenships that people in NI can avail of.
“The point I perhaps was poorly making was that we have a peculiar system here under the GFA, someone born here can be British, Irish and both.”
That’s got nothing to do with the GFA. People all across the world can choose whatever identity they want. It’s not peculiar to NI.
“That’s got nothing to do with the GFA. People all across the world can choose whatever identity they want. It’s not peculiar to NI.”
You can simply choose what nationality you want to be?
How many international passports are you entitled to hold MT?
“You can simply choose what nationality you want to be?”
Of course. We are all autonomous humans with the ability to form our own identities.
“How many international passports are you entitled to hold MT?:
Two. Why so you ask? You’re not confusing nationality and citizenship, are you? If you are, citizenship entitlements were not changed by the GFA either.
“Even some one who only has a Irish passport/citizenship and was born in NI have “effective” British citizenship. You receive and quite rightly so all the benefits of being here as someone who has a British passport/citizenship.”
The benefits you refer to are available to all resistants regardless of citizenship. You don’t have to be a UK citizen to receive them.
“I even have an input into how these public services and many other issues are handled through the votes I can cast for Stormont and Westminister. The Irish citizens in NI have no right to vote in the running of there country, which seems to me as a pretty second rate type of citizenship.”
It’s not unusual for citizens living outside a country not to be able to vote in its elections.
“I’ve heard many people on this blog complaining that the south treats northern Irish citizens as second rate and I don’t blame them at all. Can you imagine if they tried to stop British citizens in NI voting for Westminister. It just wouldn’t happen.”
Two entirely different things. UK citizens in NI live in the UK. Southern Irish citizens in NI don’t live in Southern Ireland.
But the UK is not a country Scott, it is a union of nations.
Your country is Ireland. Ireland voted to leave the UK and part of the country refused resulting in partition.
Ireland is still your country, but it has been divided and it has not been good for our people since, especially the Irish Catholics who remained in the north.
“It’s not a Gardi that comes if I’m in trouble it’s a British PSNI officer.”
How do you know it wont be an Irish PSNI officer?
Northern Ireland is not part of Britain but it is part of Ireland.
“If I’m sick the NHS looks after me not the southern health service.”
So if you drove down the road and took sick in Dublin you would refuse to be treated by the southern health service?
Whether you are in Dublin of Belfast, you are still in Ireland.
“If I’m unemployed it’s the British welfare system that supports me not the ROI.”
Only if you are living in 6 of Irelands 32 counties.
You are entitled to live and work in any of them.
“The Irish citizens in NI have no right to vote in the running of there country, which seems to me as a pretty second rate type of citizenship.”
Well said Scott, that is exactly how I feel about it.
I also believe you are genuine Scott.
The problem with passport entitlement is the Irish nation covers the people in all of the island or Ireland and wherever they travel in the world, but the Irish state has jurisdiction over only 26 of those counties. While this division remains, Irish citizens are disenfranchised from their nation state.
Ssying, “but you can be part of the British state instead” is not really very helpful when you feel abandoned by your own people and in many cases have been treated badly by forces of the British state and would die before you would accept British rule.
Perhaps you are starting to see things from our point of view though. It is a poor level of citizenship.
“The problem with passport entitlement is the Irish nation covers the people in all of the island or Ireland and wherever they travel in the world, but the Irish state has jurisdiction over only 26 of those counties. While this division remains, Irish citizens are disenfranchised from their nation state.”
How do you work that out? All Southern Irish citizens are entitled to vote if they live in the state; if they don’t live there they don’t get to vote.
“How do you work that out? All Southern Irish citizens are entitled to vote if they live in the state; if they don’t live there they don’t get to vote.”
That is what I said. The US allows its citizens to vote no matter what country they live in.
I want Ireland to afford its citizens the same courtesy which will also address the imbalance in our own country over partition
“That is what I said. The US allows its citizens to vote no matter what country they live in.
I want Ireland to afford its citizens the same courtesy which will also address the imbalance in our own country over partition”
But what’s that got to do with the ‘division’ to which you referred?