There was a moment in the radio discussion of Eddie Daly and the Duke of Westminster yesterday which, in retrospect, may have exemplified a tendency among nationalists/republicans. It came as I was making some statement about Eddie Daly, along the lines of “Eddie Daly worked for most of his life in Derry” . Gregory Campbell immediately intervened with “You’re presumably referring to Londonderry,” to which I said “OK, Londonderry if that’s what you want to call it” and went on with whatever it was I was trying to say.
What tendency did this exemplify? That where unionist politicians – and sometimes just vocal unionists – criticize things that nationalists or republicans have said or done, nationalists or republicans tend meekly to accept the criticism.
Try it the other way round. Suppose Gregory had been making a point and had said something along the lines of “Eddie Daly moved to Londonderry early in his career”, and I had interrupted him and said “You’re presumably referring to Derry”, how likely is it that Gregory would have responded with “OK, Derry, if that’s what you want to call it”? Let me go out on a limb here and say Gregory would have come back with some stinging comments on my interruption.
This tendency for unionist politicians – and, as I say, sometimes ordinary unionists – to reprimand statements by nationalists/republicans, and for said nationalist/republicans to meekly accept the stern rebuke, is not uncommon. Some of you may remember Mary McAleese some years ago making a comparison between the Nazi rearing of their young to dislike Jews, and the unionist tradition of rearing their young to dislike Catholics. There was immediately a storm of protest from unionist politicians – outrageous for McAleese to compare unionists with Nazis. But even though she hadn’t done that, but had compared the passing of prejudice and sometimes hatred from one generation to the next, she was beaten into silence on the subject.
I was similarly chastised when I suggested that the Boys’ Brigade had military trappings which it might well do without. Monstrous, apologise – how dare you compare the Lurgan INLA and the Boys’ Brigade. Which I hadn’t. The Ulster Unionist Party response yesterday to the BBC’s request for a statement on their non-attendance at the Eddie Daly funeral was to once again attack me for having compared the BB to the INLA.
Are nationalists/republicans too meek in their response to such reproofs or attacks? Not always – the indefatigable Jessica on this site has many qualities but I wouldn’t list meekness among them. But in many instances the nationalist/republican response is to apologise or placate. To cite Gregory Campbell again (sorry, Gregory): when Mark Carruthers cited gestures by republicans such as Martin McGuinness meeting Queen Elizabeth and Gerry Adams meeting Prince Charles, Gregory’s response was to mutter darkly about McGuinness’s refusal to tell us what else he had done.
There’s a fairly widespread conviction among nationalists/republicans that, while meekly accepting correction and attack may be Christian and does show unionism that we seek reconciliation, not verbal wars, there is a serious danger that unionism will mistake reasonableness and a reluctance to retaliate for weakness and acceptance of unionist schoolmasterly sternness.
Footnote: since writing the above, I’ve put up the various comments from blogreaders yesterday. Several of them exemplify precisely what I was saying in this blog: if you don’t adopt a strictly neutral or preferably unionist line, you’re clearly biased, you must curb this tendency, this is not the first time, etc, etc.
A second, related point: Because of time pressures (I’m spending half my life writing blogs and the other half vetting comments and then putting them up) I am going to try to resist the temptation to engage in further exchanges with those who comment on my blog. So please direct your questions to other commenters pro tem. I really must have some living time…
Jude, I just looked up the meaning of the word “bullied” and these were the meanings:
intimidation, domineering, terrorization, fright, fear, and and so on. My belief is that when one has experienced these, that it induces silence, fear & subservience.
There has been no outreach from unionist politicians and I doubt there ever will be .There is no acceptance that approximately half the population have a differing political persuasion either and a knowledge that for example , every place-name on the island has been anglicised from the gaelic to make it easier for the English invaders to pronounce them. Thus we get Londonderry…..because English money was used to build it into a city and attach the place to the English London(or should I say, the Roman “Londinium” ). “Daire or Doire”, the place of the oak groves, was still good enough for the local natives , though and still remains in use except for those pedants who accept that English law is somehow the word of god..
Political unionism wish to remain blind to it because to actually “see” what nationalism and the rest of the civilised world has seen and recognise as the history of the Irish conflict and how it twisted our society out of shape. Even the very source and reason for the recent thirty-year conflict is disputed by them . Rather than cooly assess just how “theTroubles ” literally started on the streets because of gerrymandering, mismanagement a,nd finally violence by an inept and woefully biased Stormont unionist government , they want to pretend to themselves that it was nothing to do with them at all. Even when a Conservative British government despaired of them and PM Edward Heath pulled the rug from under them and suspended Stormont ,taking away control of security from them …they couldn’t see the mote in their own eyes…..or rather refused to see it…and what do you know…they even protested about it and got unionists out in the streets.
It’s obvious that the good old days of ruling unionism are long gone and that with every new twistof world-stage politics their position weakens .They got to this present position by not realising that to increase and build unionismas a political ideal right across the board, they would need to sell it in a much sweeter way. They were and still are incapable of persuading a growing Irish nationalism to consider that unionism is a benign ethos . Rather than persuade , they insult at every opportunity ,as though they had no need to unite our society.
Like Arlene Foster’s reasons for leaving the EU, their reading of the historical time-line still remain opaque , for example. I have no idea why she wanted to leave the EU when she ow apparently wants all its benefits back again. Is this not a sign of madness? Similarly I don’t know how unionism views our history of the past 100 years .They say it didn’t really happen as it was was seen and reported to have happened by the rest of the world and that what we have as a historical record is simply Irish nationalist propaganda. So I ask myself …what exactly do they really think happened here in Ireland for us to have arrived in this position and how did they come to that conclusion?
Paddykool, good suggestion about the need to “cooly assess” the conflict. Perhaps a starting point might be the fortunes made by merchants out of the slave trade, millions of Africans were kidnapped and human trafficked into slavery. Big houses and walls were constructed at a terrible price in Ireland.
Well there is that Antaine de Brún. The trading of slaves certainly ,in part, built the British Empire. It certainly built cities like Liverpool .At least fifty and up to one hundred and thirty ships a year were bringing slaves into Britain and it’s reckoned that seventy five per cent of all European slaving ships left from Liverpool. It amounted to something like a million and a half human -beings being stolen from Africa and enslaved and sold on by British slavers. The trade built all those fine big houses in Liverpool’s suburbs , for example.It was handier money than stealing from the Sugar Isles or importing tobacco from America. It is worth considering the conditions these poor human beings were forced to live and die in ..even in transit.
In Ireland the Stuarts introduced the Irish to the slave trade.When Charles II returned to the throne in 1660 it was an unavoidable fact that sugar was the richest commodity in the world and The Royal Africa Company was founded to supply slaves to the British West Indies in order to enhance the production of sugar-cane .The Irish worked for this company too and many Irish nmaes appear in the company records. William Ronan was one , who worked in West Africa through the 1680’s and 1690’s. He was a A Catholic too and he rose to become the chairman of the committee of merchants at the then “Cape Castle” which is in what is now called Ghana. His career was apparently unaffected by the ascent of William of Orange. It was actually seen as a “respectable” trade …If “trade” could ever be defined as “respectable” at all in “Society” at that time. Trade was for peasants, after all.
Africans sold into slavery by their own rulers were neatly seen as prisoners of war, who would otherwise have been slaughtered. Slavery was prevalent throughout the world in many societies at the time.Even Native Americans traded in slaves from tribe to tribe. By a neat twist of logic sending them to work as traded animals offered Africans life in a good , “Christian” society.(Yes….I know!) It took another century for this horror to change , but in the meantime there was much gelt to be made.
“Rather than persuade , they insult at every opportunity ,as though they had no need to unite our society.”
Harry, I challenge you to name one single thing political unionism has done to show that they want to unite our society
Support the GFA – no they were against it.
Power sharing – no, they had to be forced to accepting it
An Irish language act – no, they wont allow it
Accept the democratic decision on flying the flag – no lets waste millions of police funds on pointless protests
Name 1 thing
Well …..Jessica …That’s just what I said ..I can’t name a single thing. I thought unionism meant “to unite” so in this case it’s an oxymoron, isn’t it?
It is a very select form of unity though, in irelands case a unified form of sectarianism and bigotry
Well…yes ..that’s about it.
Gerald Grosvenor, once stated that a prerequisite for success was make sure to have an ancestor who was a close friend of William the Conqueror. Gerald did not do servility or reconciliation when it came to the Irish question. He had the ear of Ted Heath and advocated the need for military intervention in Ireland.
Legitimate concerns about social and economic conditions prevailing in the north of Ireland were dismissed by Gerald as propaganda from anarchists. Gerald did not mince his words when he supported the saturation of only certain parts of Ireland with armoured cars and tanks and guns in order to minimise the number of casualties.
Richard Haass made it abundantly clear that he was less than impressed with political unionism, using laughter to dismiss any further speculation that he would devote any more time with serial protests in the Assembly. Ms Merkel’s assessment of the annual tyrefest is not in the public domain. Effective politicians list their priorities and work to promote and develop political solutions based on equality and devoid of sectarianism or racism. It is clear that some elected representatives have yet to come to terms with the spirit, never mind the letter of the Good Friday Agreement.
Jude, this attitude within political unionism is nothing new and if anything, history teaches us, it is part and parcel of the unionist psyche. I think part of the problem within political unionism is their failure to ditch the supremist attitude that has been prevailant before and after partition that culminated in a one party state with open discrimination against the minority population and has inadvertently continued amid differing political circumstances. If we look at today, unionists share power with Nationalists – it’s simply a matter that they do so because they have too not because they want too – their failure to engage wholly with reconciliation, their failure to engage their community and step beyond their comfort zone, their failure to look beyond their own narrow mindedness is frustrating – Gregory Campbell has recently talked of unionists “lack of confidence” – I don’t subscribe to that – Unionism is where it is because that’s where it wants to be. Unionism is based on the precept of looking backwards and being reactionary and not looking forwards (Arlene and BREXIT typifies this). Unionism lacks the leadership to make these bold moves – John Hume was making these bold moves in the late 1980’s to sort the Northern Ireland situation out, nationalists post 1998 have been making numerous gestures – unionism on the scale of things is a very slow learner – 2016 gestures are small scale and do not happen on a regular basis – tribalism is more important than progression – being insular is more important than acceptance and outward looking. I feel also the lack of critical analysis from mainstream media on the lack of unionist reciprocation on reconciliation et al is frightening – I recall talking to a political unionist a while back and he told me – the more Sinn Fein reach out the hand and make gestures, without unionist reciprocation, the more damage it will do them electorally as their grassroots will become frustrated and disillusioned. I find this a very interesting point as I know quite a few ex Sinn Fein voters who believe the party has offered too many gestures without reciprocation.
I’m currently reading Alan Parkinson’s, Belfast’s Unholy Wars – fascinating insight into the troubles of 1920-22 – the fears or mindset within the unionist community of 100 years ago, the elements of bigotry, sectarianism, attitude of supremacy and entitlement still exist is some quarters today. Is it possibly to break down and eradicate society of these generational traits? I mean as Catholic workers were foricibly rejected from their place of work, en mass, unionists in the 1920’s wanted to initiate “loyalty cards” where Catholics twould carry a card outlining their loyalty to the King – just to get back into employment – I found this unreal – the fact that these unionists and their attitude of supremacy felt they had a monopoly over and an entitlement to employment. And we all know what post partition Northern Ireland meant for employment. Do some unionists see Catholics / Nationalists as subjects rather than equal citizens?
“I recall talking to a political unionist a while back and he told me – the more Sinn Fein reach out the hand and make gestures, without unionist reciprocation, the more damage it will do them electorally as their grassroots will become frustrated and disillusioned. I find this a very interesting point as I know quite a few ex Sinn Fein voters who believe the party has offered too many gestures without reciprocation.”
I am guilty of this myself TH, though in my case it was a refusal to vote for Stormont period, if I was going to vote at all, it would most certainly have been for Sinn Fein.
But I have since searched my own feelings on this, and there is merit in Sinn Fein’s persistence and determination to do the right thing and I also suspect the refusal to reciprocate by unionism was deliberate for this very reason, to frustrate nationalists and turn them off voting.
It certainly has worked in the recent election with an increase in the nationalist electorate resulting in a decline in the nationalists using their vote.
My problem is I have lost all support for Stormont period and I would no longer even support a devolved arrangement in a united Ireland to Stormont. It must be closed down and turned into a museum in my opinion.
This is something that 12 months ago I would have considered in return for a united Ireland. I would be resolute in my opposition to this now for that very reason.
The risk unionism is taking in this behaviour, is the rewards will not be permanent but a stalling tactic only. The statistics are not lies and eventually there will be a nationalist majority and negotiations on the format of unification and the more intransigent they are between now and then, the less I will give a damn about their wishes later.
When you say ex Sinn Fein voters, do you mean ex voters or did they vote for another party in Stormont?
Sorry for delay responding, Jessica.
“When you say ex Sinn Fein voters, do you mean ex voters or did they vote for another party in Stormont?” It’s a mixture, Jessica – some voted for other political parties and some spoiled their vote. In a few cases these people were ardent Sinn Feiner’s at one stage and over a period of time their support for the party has diluted to the extent where they choose not to vote for the party.
“Sinn Fein’s persistence and determination to do the right thing” I agree it is the right thing to do, but there only so much one can give before expecting something in return – I can genuinely see after all those gestures with little recipocration, why some SF voters would start asking questions – SF has had to move a lot from their traditional base and in the wake of these moves some people have chosen to be left behind, for a variety of reasons.
“The risk unionism is taking in this behaviour, is the rewards will not be permanent but a stalling tactic only.” The thing is though Unionists are still getting the support and getting their voters onto the streets – a step beyond political unionism – would the unionist community be supportive of an increase in reconciliatory gestures towards the Nationalist community ? Don’t forget it wasn’t too long ago we heard this notion of a “cultural war” on Unionism and yesterday I read in the Irish News Jamie Bryson spouting this notion that loyalists and unionists are the victims if political policing and the fact those same communities have been hounded and harrased – it’s the leadership within unionism, the paramilitary figures within the communities who hold the power over the mindset of the unionists people, in my opinion. If they are willing to engage, move on and make these bold moves, this stalling tactics will continue. SF and the SDLP have made these progressive gestures – both parties electoral support is in decline (SF in the North) – is it possible to recoup this lost support? Is it possible to win back those people who have become disillusioned with both parties? I see little evidence of either party trying to re-engage those voter – I’d a SF MLA at my door during the last election campaign – when I challenged him on a few social and economic issues he walked away from me – perhaps the political unionist I was talking to is correct that SF and the SDLP are electorally damaging themselves ….
“The statistics are not lies and eventually there will be a nationalist majority” – I feel this point has been exhausted in the past, particularly by SF. In the future a Catholic majority does not necessarily mean a Nationalist majority. Not all Catholics would define themselves as Nationalist – Nationalist are not coming out en massee to vote, some Nationalists are looking to alternative parties such as PBP as happened in West Belfast and Foyle, a party that designated Socialist.
I can understand this TH, I was also unable to bring my self to vote for the farce that is Stormont.
Unionism and the two states pandering to them has made it a joke not worth taking seriously.
The USA allows its citizens to vote no matter what country they live in or pay taxes in.
Perhaps if we pressure for the same rights as other nations give to their citizens the right to vote from other jurisdictions, we will have more options.
Voting for a communist PBP or a Westminster SDLP to sit in Stormont and join in with intransigent unionists to attack our one and only all Ireland republican party is not an alternative I would even contemplate.
It is certainly damaging Sinn Fein electorally in the north. I can see why they refuse to sink to the level of unionism.
The truth is, if the south do not acknowledge the effort they are making for all of the people on this island and continue to pander to unionism and call us brits etc… then perhaps they need to be more honest and come out and say they don’t want reunification or care about what happens to the citizens in the north. Why don’t they just build a wall around the border such as Trump in the states suggests he will do with Mexico. I can at least respect his honesty and it would be better than giving us false hope.
Either way, what Sinn Fein are doing needs to be done.
It is not their responsibility to make Stormont work, only to have given it the opportunity to work. The rest is up to those in power in Dublin.
“I was similarly chastised when I suggested that the Boys’ Brigade had military trappings which it might well do without.”
Not true. You were chastised for saying a BB parade was a bit like a terrorist gathering.
“Monstrous, apologise – how dare you compare the Lurgan INLA and the Boys’ Brigade. Which I hadn’t..”
You had.
Its pointless arguing with Jude he prints it down in his blog and then doesnt have the guts to stand over what he writes at least Ryan and others have the guts to come out and say t hey supported the Republican armed struggle.
The conflict or at least the military aspects of it has been over for nearly 20 years Robert.
Both loyalist and republicans have acknowledged the hurt their actions played.
Sinn Fein are making an effort at reconciliation.
Political Unionism which started the conflict in the first place has yet to acknowledge its role however and remains as intransigent and bigoted as ever.
The British state has still not acknowledged its role in many hundreds of murders, remains active today and is still protecting its own murderers as proactively as ever by hiding behind national security.
Ryan would have been a child during the conflict so I don’t see how you can say he supported it but I assure the IRA could not have fought the British army to a standstill without the support in their own communities.
They will always have my thanks and appreciation as someone who did support the IRA during the conflict, much more so than I did Sinn Fein back then.
But it doesn’t take guts to say you supported one side or another in a conflict, it does take guts however to stand up in front of the cameras and support reconciliation, to reach out the hand of friendship to your enemy, to take risks for peace and to face down bigotry in your own community.
It is just a pity there is not one person with the guts to do this within unionism.
The use of the term London Derry is to keep us in our place and a reminder of who is in control of this part of Ireland.
Mary McAleese was absolutely correct in her comparison of how the majority of unionists are brought up to dislike Catholics the way Nazi did with Jews.
It was probably the fact that Nazis also caused the deaths of literally millions of people and started a world war that forced her to capitulate – not the inaccuracy of what she was saying.
A more accurate comparison would be in the deep south with white supremacists and the black community.
Prejudices are passed on even subliminally through reactions, facial expressions, responses to events that children intuitively pick up on and in the above example grew up fearing blacks and not wanting to associate with them for fear of being ostracised in their own community based on the reactions of others over time..
That is why the UUP did not attend and it is to hide their shame in it being publically discussed that they try to deflect attention.
But it is the role of political leaders such as the UUP to break this cycle and show the same leadership shown by Sinn Fein and Martin McGuinness in particular.
While the unionist response is to ignore the positive gestures of the present and cast back to what may or may not have happened 40 years ago, that simply means he has no argument and reverts to the carte blanche argument to deflect from losing.
It is not in anyone interests to tolerate this. As you say, foolish or timid people will back down and think there is a point here. There is not.
Unionism started the conflict, as with all conflicts bar none, awful things happen and result in a cycle of tit for tat atrocities which require genuine leadership to break. Unionism started the conflict, but they sure as hell didn’t end it.
It took England to lose patience and courage from the IRA to completely decommission and stand down to hand over all faith in Sinn Fein that the police can be reformed, that power sharing will be enforced, that a referendum on unification will happen.
Sinn Fein had the courage to take control and are delivering what violence could never have and they have done it all against the absolute total objection from unionism who have had to be dragged kicking a screaming every step of the way.
It can be frustrating to see them tolerate such blatant bigotry and bad manners but it shows there resolve is resolute and it will in the longer term stand by them whereas the behaviour of political unionism is simply tarring all of the unionist people with their hate in the eyes of the world and as we know, many on this site are not happy with it.
But the answer is not to capitulate and accept that it is only a part of unionism that is the problem, but to stand firm and give them no choice but to persuade their representatives of unionism to acknowledge their past and start displaying good manners for a start.
In resposne to your footnote, keep up the good work, there is a dearth of critical faculties in many of the journals of record. Take the rest of the day off. Beir bua.
The reaction to Jude’s use of the word ‘Derry’, was silly and unnecessary – ‘Londonderry’ doesn’t fit into the rhythm of a well know Loyalist song and no one has a problem with singing Derry in that instance.
In the same way, I suggest, the use of terms like Nazi Jew and Unionist in the same context is unnecessary, and perhaps unwise.
If the point is about raising children with prejudice it can be done in a different way.
Likewise, if the point is a concern about military trapping, that point can be made in a different way.
The use of words and word association is a live and difficult thing in our society, perhaps that is what we all need to reflect upon.
And I would suggest too, that there is another world, a world away from blogs and politicians and the media, in which people live together, work together and respect one another with few if any issues at all – sometimes people are even friends with one another, and out of the heat of the kitchen things aren’t a bad as we think.
We can be perfectly civil to one another face to face but still harbour bigotry underneath
Unionism is what it is
To support division of a country and it’s people for the interests of a minority requires a certain kind of person and not one that should be trusted or taken at face value
Once bitten twice as shy I’m afraid
Great story
Jude
To be fair I think people are just robustly disagreeing with you rather than trying to silence you.
You do seem fond of occasionally making provocative remarks and then affecting surprise about the reaction.
As to this point about backing down over Derry/Londonderry I do not see this tendency to meekly accept anything.
Once again you are generalising from your own experience with a much more aggressive fellow interviewee.
It tells us nothing about nationalists in general any more than Tom Elliott’s remarks tell us anything about the protestant community and their views on the Duke of Westminster.
I’m sorry you are taking a vow of silence below the line, but I suspect there will be backsliding!
Just as well, Esteemed Blogmeister, that you did not use ‘Doire Cholmcille’ or your yogurt would have been well and truly curried. Or if not, then, at the very least your inner rhinestone cowboy would have had to do a load of compromising . Resulting, in all probability, in a trade-in for Maiden City, terminology -wise.
Not that this sort of one-way verbal traffic control doesn’t happen down here: just like the Yoons in Norneverland the Yoons in the the Free Southern Stateen do have a Vice Squad but don’t have a Vice Versa Squad. In other words, some terminology is U while other t. is strictly Non-U.
Call, perhaps, the absence of a Voice-Versa Squad a one-size Nancy Mitford for all.
This being that time of the four year cycle one tends to think in terms of gold, silver and bronze. Thus, one would place, after mucho mature recollection and double checking of the score cards, Roaring Greg, somewhat reluctantly, on the silver step only of the Podium of the Poltroonery (Synchronized) event.
Gold medal, indubitably, goes to RTE (more of which anon) but first, the bronze medal. Which is a tosser up between the Sindo and its broadcasting wing, Toady, oops, Today fm.
The latest edition (one hears)of the S. features the(sadly) still untitled Gay Byrne dissing P. Pearse as a ‘bit loopy’ (it is never too late to drill one’s backward walking skills while dressed in cavalry twill). During the week, then, the following news item came from cleft-sticky field:
-A Roman Catholic priest was sentenced today in England for child abuse offences dating back many years.
Now, there was no indication that this previously unheard of cleric had any Irish connections (his name indeed sounded a tad English in a Wodehousehold way). Which is not to say that it had no relevance. On the basis that it kept the possibility of paedophilia not being anything other than a RC clerical monopoly to the forefront for the ovine-minded over here in Oirland.
The toast-proposed ghost of Lord Kitchener, a major minor-molester, could be virtually seen to point his finger eastwards and heard to intone on Toady fm in Dublin:
-This country needs you, unknown RC priest of English stock.
And now to the Gold Medal winner on the Podium of the Poltroonery (Synchronized) event, flanked on its right by Roaring Greg aka Londonderry’s loosest cannon, and on its left on an enlarged step, G. B. (untltled) and Toady fm.
That would be RTE which deservedly wins the Gold for its report of the Silver, or rather its, erm, repechage report. While the O’Donovan Brothers of Skibereen caught the imagination of the nation it fell to RTE to do its duty in the less glamorous and scabby task of catching a crab.
When the double scullers from near Schull were interviewed one of them uttered a three-pronged marine weather forecast which, alas, the newshounds of RTE/ broadcasting wing of The Unionist Times could not quite get their skulls around. And left their broadscasting bones very cross indeed.
-Tiocfaidh ar La !
Was the imperfectly innocuous phrase which failed to pass muster with the censorious General Custers and other Section 31-minded moralists in the RTE newsroom/ control tower. Hence, the latest posthumous Paddywhack of a Crozier-O’Brien delivered to TaL which is, ca va sans dire, but an abbreviation of Taliban.
-Out ! Out ! Out !
Thus was elation in Rio tempered with deletion in Dublin.
All of which, EB, brings one back by a commodious vicus of recirculation to what one can or Emmanuel Kant say.
THE O’TOOLE-FUELED FOOLS
If Proinsias de Rossa is revered as a naomh
Then O’Donovan Rossa is dissed as a knave
So, O’DR is non-U
Whereas UDR is U
And craven Ireland crawls out of the grave.
“And I would suggest too, that there is another world, a world away from blogs and politicians and the media, in which people live together, work together and respect one another with few if any issues at all – sometimes people are even friends with one another, and out of the heat of the kitchen things aren’t a bad as we think.”
I couldn’t agree with you more, PF
Well said
Just listened to it at, http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07myksw. It’s 26 minutes in to the discussion when Gregory replies “I’m from Londonderry” after you said “you’re from Derry”. That’s red rag to a bull territory. Telling Martina Anderson or any Sinn Feigner, they’re from Northern Ireland is a bee in their bonnet too.
Did anyone ask Gregory where he was from KC?
What I would be more interested to know is, will he still live in Derry when it is no longer in the UK or like so many other unionist leaders will he simply settle for London?
It seems the unionists have missed their only chance of attending a notable funeral this week.
They refused the opportunity to go to Derry for the funeral of Edward Daly, and they didn’t get an invite or opportunity to go to London for the funeral of their hero Gerald Grosvenor – it was a ‘private’ occasion – shorthand for ‘NI unionists stay away’!
But wasn’t he a great guy, spent the first seven years of his life here, then escaped to England where he spent his life counting his £8.5bn, without a penny of it ever going to one good cause, or even a not-so-good cause, in the place we’re told he loved.
of course there is Unionist bullying, bad manners, reactionary mindset and so on but there is also the simple fact that they hold people who don’t agree with their world-view with contempt in order to preserve or even enlarge the distance between individuals, or, at a group level, between groups. A welcome by-product is the damage it does Sinn Fein electorally as their grassroots will become frustrated and disillusioned.
How can nationalists /republicans cope with Loyalist contempt?
Ask a question that surprises, stuns, or shocks them.
Perhaps something like, “When you treat others with contempt and rage, are you willing to take the responsibility for starting a chain of disrespect that will not stop?
The worrying thing is that hatred and contempt often go hand in hand in a group-based context and are dangerous because there is no hope that anything can be changed, unless the contemptuous/contemptible group takes steps to do so.
”https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2015/08/07/unionistsloyalists-hold-nationalists-and-republicans-in-contempt/
The British Establishment is slowly but surely getting tired of the loyalist bigot. Very bad for business is the cry from the money men! Then again, no matter what happens they will always have the supprt of the BNP, Ukip, Britain First and and a variety of those wonderful humanitarians from the British far right.
I wonder too, how much of this is a talking at cross purposes and also how we hear what is said.
It may seem pedantic to correct the quote above attributed to Gregory Campbell but it is, in fact, not accurate.
Having listened to the exchange twice now, it is clear that his comment about Derry was a personal one – I’m paraphrasing, but it was more akin to: Londonderry is where I live.
Why is this important?
Because the comments about Derry have been understood in terms of angry, intolerant Unionists asserting that it’s their way or no way.
However, there is another way to hear this, the way I did, and, until I had read this blog entry, I hadn’t thought of another interpretation.
I understood Mr. Campbell to be saying: Jude, for you and for your community, it’s Derry – the name you have just used; but for me, the place where I live is Londonderry, and I wish to emphasise that.
Now, was there any need to do this, as I have said already, I don’t think so.
But as Nationalists use ‘Derry’, Unionists (tend to) use ‘Londonderry’ in normal speaking.
Is the use of each term a kind of territorial claim? Of course. But to we need to take offence, do we need to hear a put-down, must either of our cultures be a threat or a laying down of the law to the other…
I’d have thought not.
What we hear isn’t necessarily always there.
In the context of the discussion, Edrward Daly would have used only the term Derry as no one in Derry city uses London Derry.
Furthermore his title was Bishop if Derry, not Bishop of London Derry.
Add to this Gregory’s track record of displays of bigotry I think we know what context it was meantime to see your true colours coming out though Peter.
I would prefer the honesty.
The name needs to be officially changed back to Derry at the first opportunity.
Jessica, all those uses of Derry may well be the case, and as I keep saying I have no particular issue, but all that is besides the point of why Gregory Campbell might have, could have, perhaps did use the name with the London prefix.
I’m trying, indeed I’ve spent most of my time on this blog trying, to explain to the best of my knowledge why Unionists, Protestants, Prods, Loyalists, Brits, and whomever else from my community might do what they do; and believe it or not, it isn’t always to poke the other side in the eye. Nor do I, myself, agree with everything they do.
And I’m wondering what true colours of mine you can possibly mean?
Perhaps you should stop trying to make excuses for others from your community, especially elected representatives and speak only for yourself.
What you perhaps need to ask yourself, is why you need to spend so much time defending those actions in the first place and has your community really moved on?
I would say it hasn’t and it is down to poor political leadership.
What I mean by true colours, is when it comes down to it, you will revert to the unionist bottom line along with the others.
You are even defending Gregory Campbell for heavens sake.
If it makes you all feel any better Gregory types are equally bull headed with other less prickly unionists.
That’s what makes Gregory so ‘Flegory’, he is THE extreme.
And before anyone gets on their high horse can I point out how outraged a lot of people on this site were at the sheer mention or hint at flying a second flag or singing a second anthem during the sporting games where Northern Ireland and the Republic play as one?
http://www.judecollins.com/2015/09/ireland-rugby-and-flag-foolishness/
So whilst it’s rude for Gregory to correct Jude like that is it any nicer to ignore political and fleggy reality when nationalists are in the majority?
I think not.
At least Gregory is honest AG.
You know where you stand with him.
As for flags and anthems, a nation should have only one flag and one anthem or it will result in divided loyalties.
If the rugby team want to respect the unionists on the team they should play god save the queen which at least is an anthem and not some pathetic coulter ditty.
Ah nothing like a good old Londerry/Derry/walled city/maiden city/stroke city/the second city/foyle bun fight is there.
There lots of towns we could chop parts of there names off
Newtownards could be changed to Ards.
Ballynahinch is often called simply Hinch.
Downpatrick was called when I was at school there DPK by the cool kids.
The only town I ever heard to enlarge its name was Moy Co Tyrone. When I worked there the locals called it (in a very broad Tyrone accent) “The Moy”.
As for what the name of are second largest city should be. Well I personally don’t give a hoot. Whatever pleases you folks
So any one want to talk about say education, health………. No, OK.
“Are nationalists/republicans too meek in their response to such reproofs or attacks?”
Yes Jude and I’ve been saying this for years. I find such responses from Nationalists to be pathetic and embarrassing, frankly. Just as I’ve said on this blog many times, not all people are the same.
Unionists do NOT think like Nationalists and vice versa. What Nationalists may call “Peace”, Unionists may call “Surrender”. We see this all the time in local councils. Nationalist politicians think by promoting Unionists to Mayors in dominated Nationalist councils that this will bring “Peace”, it will promote “Reconciliation”, it will promote “Reciprocation” from Unionist dominated councils. It wont. Most Unionists see this as something they are entitled to because Ulster Unionism is a deeply supremacist ideology, mixed in with Protestant Fundamentalism but they also see it as something Catholics are NOT entitled to, hence why the same system of power sharing isn’t implemented in Unionist dominated councils. In fact there is repeated cases of discrimination against minority Catholic communities under Unionist dominated councils.
We see the same thing with parades. There is over 4,000 Orange/Unionist parades per year. A minority of these parades demand to parade near contentious areas, aka Catholic areas. Why? to show their supremacism. In Derry today thousands of Apprentice Boys paraded in an 80% Catholic city, despite the history of vile sectarianism these parades have exhibited, from mocking Bloody Sunday to promoting Unionist paramilitaries. Could you imagine a Republican parade marching in Lisburn City Centre? and the local population and council tolerating it like in Derry? We seen the reaction from Unionists at one Republican parade going through Belfast City Centre (Belfast is majority Republican btw). Their response was to hold protests, threaten violence and eventually they got the Parades Commission to block last weeks Republican Parade, from Belfast City Centre, a neutral place. This is compared to the countless Loyalist parades that are allowed to march through Belfast City Centre throughout the year without opposition.
My favourite has got to be Chris Donnelly and a member of the DUP talking two years ago on the Nolan TV Show about Twaddell. Chris Donnelly asks the DUP member would he support a Republican parade to march the very same route the Orange men want to march. The response from the DUP man? No, but he expects Catholics to allow the Orange men. (I’ll post the video below).
Nationalists have to realize that they aren’t doing themselves any favours. Being too “Nice” is as bad as being too tough. As my mother always said: “If you behave like a door matt then don’t be surprised when your treated like one”. Me and Jessica have the right idea. I wasn’t raised to be a fool and I certainly wont be one just to please Unionism nor should my community.
No doubt there will be Nationalists who type meaningless comments like “Rise above it”. They clearly don’t understand the situation we’re in. That’s like saying to the bullied child “Just let the bully do what he wants”. No. I remember the advice my father gave me when I started primary school “If anyone tries to bully you, punch him and punch him harder each and every time you see him until he stops bullying”. That might sound a bit brutal to most people but guess what? I was never bullied at school or through life due to those words, such advice served me very well throughout my life.
Being nice, patient and pleasant is important properties to have in life. But being tough and knowing when to draw the line is just as important, especially in politics.
There is anger in Derry after a flag of the British army’s Parachute Regiment was erected in the city to coincide with the funeral of Bishop Edward Daly.Sinn Fein Cllr Christopher Jackson said “We now need to see leadership from within Unionism to ensure that these flags are taken down as those who have erected them obviously did so to create a reaction from within the Nationalist community.
http://www.derrynow.com/news/anger-after-parachute-regiment-flag-erected-in-derry-to-coincide-with-funeral-of-bishop-daly/111073