So – good deal, bad deal? The Orange Order appears to have reached a compromise with the Crumlin Ardoyne Residents’ Association (CARA), over their return-leg march past the Ardoyne shops. Next Saturday at 8.00 am, the Orange Order will conduct their march along the disputed route. In return, the Order has given a commitment not to apply for permission to march along that route, without agreement being reached with the local residents first. And the Twaddell Camp will be dismantled immediately after the 1 October march.
There are a number of ways you could look at this.
- The Orange Order perspective: we said that we had a right to march along that route, we hung in there for three years, and now we’ve been successful. We will march on that part of the Queen’s highway.
- The residents (as represented by CARA) perspective: OK, we detest these Orange marches but we will hold our noses for this last one, since it’ll allow the Orange Order to avoid losing face. In return we get a long-term, permanent victory: no marches will occur along this route except the Orange Order gets the residents to agree to it.
Sounds like a good deal – win, win then. Well yes, except there at least two other perspectives.
- The Orange Order perspective: we have a right to march along this part of the Queen’s highway. It’s good that’s been conceded at last and this year, we’ll return home along the disputed route, as we always planned. Next year? The same principles will apply: we are entitled to march on the Queen’s highway, and no residents’ group has the right to tell us we can’t. We always said that and 1 October proves we’re right. A vital precedent has been established.
- The Greater Ardoyne Residents’ Collective perspective: well, we don’t yet know what the GARC line is on this compromise. It’s possible they will take the opposite line as expressed under 3 above. That is, they will say it was and remains totally unacceptable that the Orange Order should march through an area where they’re not wanted. Talk of holding your nose for 12 minutes or whatever is beside the point. This display of triumphalism by an anti-Catholic organization should not be allowed to march through a Catholic/nationalist/republican area, full stop. To march this year would be to create a precedent; to give in to these bully-boys would be fatal.
It’s a difficult one. Most people will give a huge sigh of relief that Twaddell Camp and all its costs will finally dismantle. They’ll also be glad that the residents’ feelings will be respected for any other proposed marches from now on. They’ll pin their hopes on the Orange Order being compelled to stand by their commitment and not even apply for permission to march in future years, except agreement has been first reached with residents.
Will the Orange Order be happy to accept the compromise and accept the need for residents’ consent in future years? Will they keep their word? Nobody can say for sure – not even the Orange Order itself. But keep in mind one thing: the Greater Ardoyne Residents’ Collective have not been part of this agreement. They take a sterner line to all this than CARA.
So either hard-line Orangemen or hardline residents could yet upset the orange cart. I find myself swung, with reservations, towards the proposed deal. Whether that’ll be a worthwhile deal, we’ll not know until next year. The ball is in the Orange Order’s court. There are those who would say the Order only responds to consistent opposition ( cf Garvaghy Road). This deal, unfortunately, is built on an inconsistency: it’s OK to march the route this year but it won’t be OK to march it in future years.
I honestly can not see this being as simple as is being portrayed in the media – in the long run, if the parade is prevented from marching passed Ardoyne shops, this will be defeat for the OO – will they accept defeat ? Well three years blocking a road at 8pm, although numbers dwindled, showed they won’t give up!
But, To clear this up – will the Orange Order still march their early morning parade along the Crumlin Road (that PC allow) without “permission” from residents? Or does this just apply to future return leg?
As for “residents’ feelings will be respected.” I live in Ardoyne and never once have I been consulted in relation to my feelings on the parade – why will it be “respected” now? CARA and GARC in my opinion serve their own political and strategic interests – one in the interest of SF and the other anti SF. How will this “consent” of the residents take form? A referendum in The Star or The Shamrock (two bars in the area)? Who will take responsibility for this “consent” – GARC or CARA? And then there’s the Orange Order – not exactly a grouping I would be trusting – some of their bands can’t even walk past a church without having to show public defiance never mind having to compromise on where they can march.
“As for “residents’ feelings will be respected.” I live in Ardoyne and never once have I been consulted in relation to my feelings on the parade – why will it be “respected” now? CARA and GARC in my opinion serve their own political and strategic interests – one in the interest of SF and the other anti SF. How will this “consent” of the residents take form? A referendum in The Star or The Shamrock (two bars in the area)? Who will take responsibility for this “consent” – GARC or CARA? And then there’s the Orange Order – not exactly a grouping I would be trusting – some of their bands can’t even walk past a church without having to show public defiance never mind having to compromise on where they can march.”
An important point. These ‘residents’ groups’ represent nobody but themselves. They are front groups.
Strangely enough I agree with you I think commonsense has finally won and hopefully we can move on.
THE TRIUMPHALISM OF A FAILED TRADITISM
Let them ,the Twaddles waddle past in a para-
Stupor, is what needs to be agreed, say CARA
While the dogs bark
What bothers GARC
They’ll fun run past like Orange Lily’s mascara.
“Those who cannot change their minds, cannot change anything.” G.B. Shaw
I’m afraid I don’t understand. Does this agreement cover the 12th July return parade, which I thought waa what the protest was about?
Looks on the face of it that the Orange has conceded a veto by ‘residents’ over the parade (which was the de facto position anyway, I guess).
I think the Orange orders is, has been in the past, and will remain so in the future, one of the obstacles to peace. I don’t believe in cowing down to bigots: I’m with GARC on this one.
“I think the Orange orders is, has been in the past, and will remain so in the future, one of the obstacles to peace. I don’t believe in cowing down to bigots: I’m with GARC on this one.”
So the Orange Order, rather than a dissident group implicitly threatening violence against them, is the threat to peace?
MT: I bet your proud of your history when you travel abroad. That’s if you ever travel abroad ? I don’t think your mind travels very far.
“MT: I bet your proud of your history when you travel abroad. That’s if you ever travel abroad ? I don’t think your mind travels very far.”
Not sure what the relevance of the question is, but I’ve travelled extensively. Much more so, I suspect than you have.
Pride is one of the seven deadly sins. I wouldn’t presume that my life is worthy of pride more than anyone else’s.
MT, I don’t agree with your politics but, I believe your life is equal to mine.
“MT, I don’t agree with your politics but, I believe your life is equal to mine.:
This comment still doesn’t help me understand your previous comment. The relevance is completely lost on me.
“So the Orange Order, rather than a dissident group implicitly threatening violence against them, is the threat to peace?”
Well, for a start MT, you don’t need to openly threaten violence to be an obstacle to peace. There’s been (and still is) many UVF/UDA members in the Orange Order. Orange Halls have been used many times to hide weapons used in murders (in the Loughinisland Massacre investigation the RUC knew well in advance that the weapons used in that mass murder were being stored in an Orange Hall, along with boiler suits, gloves, masks, etc).
The Orange Order is an openly sectarian and anti-Catholic organisation, which is notorious for demanding to march either through or by Catholic areas in order to provoke. Many Orange men, even senior ones, have admitted this is their intention. We didn’t need them to admit anything, their actions/words speak for themselves.
I always remember one Protestant man confronting Winky Irvine on radio and saying the Orange Order is steeped in bigotry and sectarianism. Anyone who would try to argue otherwise is a silly individual. Reality is they are and always were an obstacle to peace.
“Well, for a start MT, you don’t need to openly threaten violence to be an obstacle to peace. ”
Obviously. Don’t you know what ‘implicit’ means?
“So – good deal, bad deal?”
Good deal for the residents, bad deal for the Orange Order. Of course, that’s assuming the Orange Order will keep their word. As we know Unionism isn’t good at keeping their word and playing fair, they have a track record of the opposite, like, for example, opposing an Irish Language Act (they agreed to it in 2006) and the DUP attempted to go back on their deal on backing a Sinn Fein Stormont speaker, despite SF backing a DUP speaker for a much longer period. The DUP also went back on the deal involving the Maze/Long Kesh site. You see the trend here: They don’t want to play fair and still obviously have a very bad opinion of Catholics. No, its not just Republicans, its Catholics in general. Religion has always played a big part in Unionist politics.
So, why is it a bad deal for the Orange Order? because, in reality, its not even a return parade. This parade will occur in the morning time. The Lodges have already marched in the morning a few times since 2013. The return parade occurs in the evening. The 2nd reason why its a bad deal for the OO is because, according to what I read, they agreed to not apply for another parade next year. I don’t know whether that includes the morning parade but it definitely counts for the return parade, so no return parade next year. Then after that the OO must get the say so from residents for any future parade, which again may include the morning parade too. If there is no agreement between the OO and residents, its inevitable the Parades Commission will turn that application down if the OO apply for permission to march, just like they have for the past 3 years.
So it is a victory for the residents, its not as sweet as it could’ve been but its still sweet, judging by many of their facebook comments. Of course there is GARC supporters who oppose this deal and want to continue the battle of attrition with the OO. I have to say, they have a point though because there was no way the OO would’ve got back down that road, the loyalists at Camp Twaddell just set themselves up to fail. It was going how Drumcree went and the residents there clearly won that Battle of Wills. I think commentator Chris Donnelly said the OO only agreed to this because they were “saving face”, they knew they backed themselves into a corner and were in an unwinnable position and wanted to get out with some dignity.
Unsurprisingly Loyalist facebook pages are riddled with cries of “Treachery!” and “Lundy!” in reference to this deal. Already the prophecies of “doom” are flying right, left and centre. Prophecies of how “PUL Culture” is being eroded and how this is “the beginning of the end”. Worryingly, there are comments with threats of violence and demands for “something to be done”. Well, that term “something needs done” in loyalist terminology historically usually meant murdering Catholics or burning Catholic Chapels. Even more disturbingly many of those issuing these threats/comments aren’t older people, their young, some even younger than me. Basically if they don’t get their way: its time for “action”.
But its not only Loyalists issuing threats, some GARC supporters are doing the same. Though no where near as sinister, there is already calls to “get the crowds out” and repeat the sit down protests that occurred in 2009 and 2010……to GARC, this certainly isn’t a done deal……
Where does all this horrendous nonsense originate? I dare say that the majority of the population get by without giving a thought to any of this.It’s true that mostly,they don’t live near the scene of the action. It’s usually a localised affair, isn’t it? Most people mightn’t even know that there have been campers at Twaddell for three years, either..Camping at a roundabout? What?!!!! Are you bloody serious? C’mon …get yourself a bloody life. No….. most people who have a functioning -brain couldn’t give a tuppenny toss about any of that .They might sit up if you mentioned the cost of policing the thing and then ask for their money back. To actually spend three years of your life camping at a roundabout.Mosat people would rather eat their own hands rather than do that.
“Are these people insane ?” … they might ask. Well the straight answer is that …well…yes …they are bit mad.You’d have to be to get your head into such a state that you’d camp out at a roundabout in protest for not getting marching where you weren’t wanted .Most people would avoid a place like that like the plague.It would be like wanting to walk through a widlife park with lions on the prowl .N…ooo…!! Rational people would coolly assess the situation and decide that it wasn’t the best idea in the world. …every moment lived on the planet being precious and that…..
That we have a section of the population crazy enough to want to do such a thing ,speaks volumes about their state of mind and their limitations.Make a list of a hundred things you could better do with any free time you might have .Where would walking down a road, dressed up like a refugee from the first decade of the 20th century, figure on that list, eh? Can you imagine that being at the top of anyone’s “Bucket List”?…..Huh? ….No , me neither. You ‘d be better off joining a bunch of Morris Dancers…At least you’d get the odd laugh.
As for going and looking at Loyalist Facebook pagest just to read a lot of bile on them…Why would you do that either?…except maybe for a dark laugh at the horror of it all.You’d be wiser not bothering with it at all.If all this garbage is written by young people with no memory of the horror the generation before them lived through , you’d be safer not encouraging them in any shape or form.Where is this hatred coming from in the first place and who’s keeping it coming? There is madness.There has to be .I often ask myself why anyone would have such a shallow life that they could take time out of it to climb up a pole anf fix a flag to to the top of it. It takes a particular type of individual to even want to do that kind of thing ….never mind actually going and doing it .Again …how many hundreds of other life-enhancing things could that person be doing instead? It would make you weep.
I agree with you Harry, it is a crazy situation. Like I have stated previously: we need to focus on the positive. If we were as smart as bees, then we could all work collaboratively to produce honey. Metaphorically speaking.
There was a great article in the Sunday Times Magazine about 5 years ago. Ir was about a squatter camp in South Africa and featured 2 resident, one Black and one White. The latter was born in to a family that had a nice gaff with a servant and felt that she was robbed by equality. Yep, robbed by equality.
My granny always said that there will never be peace until the grass grew in the shipyard and she was not too far off. Whilst it isn’t true, loyalists think that they are like that White woman in S Africa and their leaders do this amazing trick of confirming their delusion while making them think that the 5 counties are God given to them, 1922 being a slack year for God.
In Derry, they were punished with something even more cruel that equality, in their eyes, fairness. Meanwhile in Belfast, the new generation of unionists just don’t want to know. Twaddell was a total failure, like the flegs dispute, as anyone with a memory of the big unionist protests from the Ulster workers strike to the Anglo Irish Agreement protests to the Drumcree protests, can attest.
These loyalists are like the dirt poor Americans who fly Old Dixie otr the Britain First types who bastardise the St George’s flag. Offence is all that these people have to keep themselves alive. They are to be faced down, not facilitated.
It’s just another 15 minutes of humiliation. All right thinking people saw that it was morally wrong to allow these people to parade their sectarianism where it was not going to be tolerated any longer. But sure, just a wee bit more humiliation. Sure go on.
“It’s just another 15 minutes of humiliation. All right thinking people saw that it was morally wrong to allow these people to parade their sectarianism where it was not going to be tolerated any longer. But sure, just a wee bit more humiliation. Sure go on.”
Eh?
Well said Freddie.
Ah but the point is that they extended their offence to everyone in Belfast, the six counties possibly.This is a major reason why I object to the parade going ahead. Its worth re-watching The Men Who Won’t Stop Marching (its all on YouTube) or looking at loyalists online attacks on educated unionists/Protestants.
These people, the people that threw pish/shit/used condoms/porn at primary school girls are no longer attacking the people of Ardoyne, they’re taking us all on and we folded.