Stormont is a unionist citadel, packed to the rafters with unionist symbols and steeped in a history rife with discrimination, sectarian bigotry and blatant majority misrule.
In hindsight, that nationalists would even consider doing power sharing with the same unionist parties who abused majority rule so ignominiously in the past, must have been seen as a sign of weakness, a signal that Irish Catholics could once again be treated like second class citizens by a unionist elite ruling class, worthy of Irelands darkest history in the troubled relationship between these islands.
To be fair, the last 10 years of stability in Stormont has been against the run of play and totally down to the efforts of Sinn Fein and in particular Martin McGuinness. While unionists in both DUP and UUP were complaining publically about having to hold their noses to share power or the difficulties it presented for them, the fact that nationalists were actually sitting in what would be considered to them to be a dragons den of iniquity; and doing so without complaining in the best interests of ALL of the people here to build a better future.
We would have to suspect that Ian Paisley and Peter Robinson who have pasts of their own would have understood the difficulties this presented and knew where to draw the line in their arrogance. Young Arlene and Paul Givan clearly have no comprehension whatsoever of the difficulty Stormont represents to many nationalists or they simply do not care and believe incredibly, that change will never never never come and unionist domination is the only show in town.
Even now, they clearly still do not understand what has happened, just what went wrong.
Martin McGuinness went as far as he could to bend over backwards to give them an escape route, to give them friendly advice to save face and keep things running and to give power sharing every opportunity to work.
Their response to deride their partners in government as being unworthy to give them advice, to be no more than people they actually dislike and would not want to do business with if they had any other choice, coupled with their history of corruption plastered all over the media and a disgusting email rejoicing in the removal of funding for the Liofa project showing the true contempt they have for one section of the community they refuse to represent.
For Martin not to resign would have been to capitulate to behaviour so unworthy of human nature, in a divided post conflict society it could have led to more trouble and potential violence than bringing things to an end would. There was no choice. Had the two governments in Dublin and London gave a hoot sooner and made some effort to keep parity of esteem in the same book as the GFA never mind the same page, things could have been different.
But the truth is, neither Dublin or London had any interest and are no more worthy of representing Irish people in Ireland than the DUP are.
So what now?
Elections are unlikely to bring Stormont back in my opinion.
Even if Sinn Fein are returned as the largest party, the DUP cannot be allowed to share power here again until they have demonstrated they have the capability to respect the Irish community here. That would take years to achieve such has been their disdain towards nationalism over a prolonged period.
A Sinn Fein UUP coalition has never been tried before. In my opinion I would not want to see this either, the UUP were part of the same antics carried out by the DUP, standing shoulder to shoulder with loyalist paramilitaries over flags and sectarian issues.
Mike Nesbitt was central to the trouble caused over flying the union flag on designated days, a compromise by nationalism and his actions resulted in attacks on the Alliance Party. Would things be any better with a UUP joint first minister?
I would guess if it did happen, it would have to be given a chance.
The SDLP have abandoned their post nationalist agenda and young Colum is full of beans, claiming Sinn Fein are too soft on unionism and how he would put manners on the DUP blah blah. He is full of poop and will be hoping the election takes place before he has to turn down his invite to the Whitehouse for St Patricks day or do a uturn on his public claim he would never set foot there while Trump is in it.
He has also mentioned the SDLP standing in the south and rejected direct rule post-election. Not sure how Margaret Ritchie and the sizable portion of like-minded people in the party feel about this change in direction. She must feel pretty stupid standing over in Westminster getting berated by DUP ministers in a chamber bereft of british MP interest. I can see a split coming down the road for all Colum’s good intentions?
These elections will for the first time, not be about orange versus green, but about putting aside divisions and governing responsibly for all people including minorities with fairness and equality at the core. Until this can be guaranteed, Stormont must remain closed.
The only unionist party which has behaved respectfully and could fit the bill to restore power sharing, has been the Alliance Party.
In my view, the only chance Stormont has of coming back would be with Sinn Fein / Alliance joint first ministers.
While I have lost all confidence in Stormont and I do not want it back at all, I have decided I will vote for Sinn Fein first and then Alliance.
As someone who did not support the GFA and could not vote for it, who was unable to vote for Stormont last time out, to be actually now keen to vote for a unionist party for the first time ever as this election will be about equality only. It is remarkable and a strategy to implement change clearly driven by Sinn Fein.
The only risk I see, is having taken this step, should Sinn Fein allow Stormont to return with the DUP in the role of first minister, I would be devastated and feel betrayed to the extent I will give up on politics here, give up on Ireland period and support instead a political vacuum.
Perhaps billy could teach me fishing instead should that happen.
Unionism has already had their cake with cream and strawberries on top and a nice cup of tea. They cannot now eat it again.
Jessica – I posted this in a previous thread but it also seems appropriate here – hope you don’t mind…
SF’s objective in this election is – as is usual – to gain as many seats as possible.
However, I don’t think they intend to use those seats to simply re-enter Stormont with an increased mandate.
Rather they intend to use that mandate to negotiate a re-entry to a changed Stormont executive with the British and Irish governments.
In other words they plan on negotiations with the two governments ahead of any return to Stormont.
That is how I read McGuiness’ resignation letter, so that is what I believe they will campaign on.
Not (solely) the RHI – rather a reformed Stormont executive on which new terms are agreed before they return.
And I think they will be well received on doorsteps in doing so.
Assuming I’m correct the question is how far SF intend to take this renegotiation.
Will it be like the original Good Friday negotiations (root and branch) or tinkering at the edges like the more recent St Andrew’s etc?
Given the complete failure of the recent attempts I hope it will be the former.
I actually think that direct rule or joint rule would be for the best during the period of brexit negotiations with the EU.
That way England could allow unionists to have a controlled input without the risk of their insanity wrecking something that has real importance to the UK.
It will also keep their 8 MPs votes on a leash.
Sinn Fein are already guaranteed their place via Dublin and perhaps the all island forum proposed by Enda Kenny should be the only place that unionists could have any say in this situation.
It would be an education for them that they desperately need and perhaps the makings of them.
” actually think that direct rule or joint rule would be for the best during the period of brexit negotiations with the EU.”
I agree Jessica.
If SF were to refuse to nominate an FM or DFM it is hard to interpret that as anything other than a failure of the GFA – requiring talks involving both governments.
If ever there was a time HMG will be stretched for negotiators, and motivated to give the Irish government more of a hand in any new administration it is the next two years – during the Article 50 window.
Also, a few years of direct rule would focus Nationalist minds on any potential border referendum.
There is a good case that such a position would be better for Irish nationalists than the status quo.
Hi Jessica, I am tempted to say you’re talking a load of Balcas but, of course, you’re right again.
I did vote for the Good Friday compromise in ’98 and, as I pointed out to my boss on Thursday, I’ve been sorry since, although at the time, not wanting my children blown up or shot appeared good reason to support it.
I am no fan of Martin McGuinness but I do agree, he did do everything he could have to assist the DUPpies in the slurry pit they dug and filled for themselves, and their political supporters, I was returning home last evening from the capital and, listening to the 23.00 hrs. news on BBC six counties, screamed at the proposal of the DUPpie minister to dig their way out of their, publicly funded, cacs, bilateral contracts cannot be overwritten and, having listened to a ‘legal expert’ on BBC six counties this AM, would disagree with what he says about a Reg. so, how in hell are they going to get my taxes back, or, how might they determine if additional balcas is being burned to excess, please, it is incredible to suggest post policing this is possible!
I should agree, politics in Ireland does need a good Trumping, i.e. get rid of politicins and put real people in place, frankly, my wife would make a better ‘economy minister’ as she knows the value of a £, however, as any Unionist will tell you, there are politics in fishing too, just spend time in Connaught with them, and there’s a great chinese take away on the hill out of Ballina when you’re finished for the day, my preference was always Mask but, there go the politics.
Oh Jessica, I feel your pain. Power sharing with Unionists has failed. I , like many nationalists, have been dismayed by SF. I do agree wth you re Alliance – they would get my vote any day. This is a gerrymandered concocted state that has caused nothing but misery for generations. All focus now should be on England admitting guilt and declaring a complete withdrawal from Irish affairs once and for all. Any talk of more elections and more power sharing is idiotic: England must go !
Well vented , Jessica.I do not think at base there will not be much radically changed by an election unless there is some really radical thinking done beforehand . The DUP will be unable to change, I’d imagine because what they are, is what their voters actually want and I think that the same kind of people who support them and hand them their lives on a plate ,know exactly what they are getting and what they want from them . The price they have always been prepared to pay for that is to allow moral corruption at every turn and that corruption has always been a feature of unionism, no matter what new name they care to call the current party gathering the majority of those votes. Should other unionist parties soak up some of those votes, only then will we see that some unionists have a disgust for such blatent corruption. and arrogance
It’s been the same right from the beginning. Look at it like this in simple terms.Either they have always known about the corruption at the heart of their political representatives and have gone along with that corruption anyway …or they are simply too stupid to understand what is being done in their own name.
It’s a fact that those whohave supported unionism, from the very start , have literally been prepared to support treason against their “own” king while supposedly supporting that same monarch and his empire at the same time. The original UVF gun -running escapade at the beginning of the 20th century tells you that much .The First World War came along in the nick of time to save them and the British Establishment from their own stupidity and that neat little trick….although the price paid was ultimately the outright slaughter of most of them in the trenches. That solved the problem for a short while. That kind of schizophrenic loyalty/disloyalty has always been at the heart of unionism .It’s an odd method of thinking really …..that desire to remain enslaved to another country and never want to change your mind and stand on your own feet. Their ideal is to lick the boots of others and bow their head and knee in supplication to a rich, but very silly family.
Now that is not for everyone, especially those of us with no desire for the taste of boot-polish or obsequiousness.
Who to go into government with ? Who could ever be trusted in power again? As you say Alliance is the only unionist party that appears to have no stain of corruption. They have an intelligent and outspoken leader. They appear to espouse some liberal ideas too.They would probably accept a united country if that was what the majority of people desired and would probably become an Irish Liberal Party , I have no doubt. If they were already an Irish Liberal Party they would get many votes across the board.Could they ever accrue enough votes ? I have my doubts on that score. People here are really not ver liberal at all .There are simply degrees of conservatism….and then there’s that “orange and green “claptrap getting in the way too. In the scheme of things Sinn Fein have given shared government its best shot .They really have prostrated themselves to accomdate their partners in government , but even they can’t hide the DUP’s foolishness and corruption any more .As I type, a comedy programme on BBC Radio 4 is pulling the entrails of the “Soot for Loot “scandal into tiny ribbons as the audience howls with laughter. All across Middle England they think Norneverland’s politics really are a hoot. They can hardly believe it is not fantasy. ….well I can hardly believe it either.
At the moment I would be quite prepared to allow a long cooling period if that is the price to keep the DUP away from any government of mine.Even Direct Rule would be better than allowing them power again.I think they have proven beyond any doubt that they are irredeemable in any case and that any kind of future law-making is not safe in their hands .
I vote to make the English and the Irish work harder for a few years .If that means Direct Rule or eventually Joint Rule….let’s have it for a while and let’s make it very clear to the DUP and their stupid ministers that we don’t want any part of them.Either through corruption or stupidity they are simply not fit for the job that is needed .They have too much catching up to do yet and anyway their supporters are not really ready for power-sharing with nationalism .They might need a generation of education to prepare them for the concept.
Correction: I guess any talk of “power sharing” in this corrupt state is a misnomer.
Jessica Alliance aren’t a Unionist party. They are neutral on the constitutional question.
The Alliance party is a sister party to the liberal democrats across the water, they may have chosen not to declare unionist during the life of the old assembly at Stormont but their preference is to remain within the union and their core support is in unionist areas.
It would be entirely up to them whether they wish to get off the fence and step up to representing unionism.
I would be perfectly happy with direct or joint rule if they aren’t up to the challenge.
If they don’t have the honesty and integrity to accept what everyone knows they are then that would be for the best anyway.
There is enough duplicity here without adding to it.
The Alliance party have never stated a preference to remain in the Union or for a United Ireland.
To call them a Unionist party is simply a falsehood. Individual members/voters of the Alliance party may be Unionists, Nationalists or apathetic on the constitutional question but the party promotes neither Unionism or Nationalism.
What they do promote is Liberal democratic ideals and desegregation of NI society.
They support integrated education, desegregation of housing, LGBT rights, They are Pro EU and sees NI as one community and NOT two separate communities. Alliance does not view unionism and nationalism as distinct communities, but as “political positions.”
In the 46 years the Alliance party has been in existence they have had a leader who was Catholic for 21 of those years. One high profile member (Anna Lo) even gave a interview where she stated that she believed that a UI was preferable for NI.
So to state that Alliance for Unionist is clearly false and I would encourage you to try and avoid peddling false information like this as it only further confuses the NI political landscape which lets be honest is confusing enough lol.
Scott, in my eyes the Alliance party are unionist whether you or they like it or not.
But you have made me reconsider bothering to vote for them.
I will vote for Sinn Fein and no other.
They quite obviously aren’t Jessica. Perhaps you need to take the blinkers off those eyes, by which I mean political outlook, to see this.
Can you tell me what I’ve said that makes you reconsider voting for the Alliance. What have I said about them that you disagree with, out of curiosity?
I worked with a member of the party going back 15 years perhaps but was doing some work for them indirectly and was in the company of David Ford and a few others on a few occasions
The impression I got was of a bunch of money grubs but very much pro union if less interested in the flags and trappings
I am in no doubt whatsoever year their preference is to remain in the UK
What changed my mind was the dishonesty if you genuinely believe they are not pro union
As I say, I heard it from the horses mouth so am in no doubt
I could say more but won’t as it was dome time ago now
So you can’t point me to any policy statement or public statement that proves there Unionists?
You think think there really secretly a shadow Unionist party who only pretend to be cross community?
Sly ones aren’t they lol.
That’s pretty much it Scott, which is why I have time for Alliance and I’ve always found them honest. I think that if the situation here was finally settled as an integrated Ireland, they would do really well with their liberal agenda. I think that many who are fed up with the tit-for-tat aspect of politics would really find a home there if things like pensions and so on were sorted out.I think Alliance voters would be happy in a settled Ireland, but we all know that it will never be settled until it is re-united.The DUP has attempted to demonise Alliance, especially with that claptrap about flying bloody flags and the use of flags as a weapon. As said elsewhere, Anna Lo ‘s preference was for UI and that’s on record.
Scott give your head a shake, the Alliance party is unionist. It’s track record proves that. When Anna Lo stated her views on Irish unification it was welcomed by some but alas that was the finish of her in that party I.e she fell into the trap thinking Alliance was neutral.
Anna low stood down as a MLA and left politics in May 2016 and she expressed her support October 2016. So no it wasn’t the “finish of her” she had already left politics.
What policy of the Alliance party do you think makes them a Unioinist party?
Well there you go then. Anna Lo could only speak her mind after she left the party? Says it all really. The unionist party masquerading as letsgetalongerists.
That’s what it must be WT must be a Alliance conspiracy to win a few cheeky votes under the radar for Unionism. Devious little cosmopolitanites aren’t they.
Probably orchestrated by the BBC propaganda Unionist machine and there twin evil geniuses of Nolan and Crawley, there prods too you know so they must be in on it.
Letsgetalongerist is truly malevolent, god forbid people might actually want to just live together peacefully instead of tearing lumps out of each other on a daily basis.
Like I mean, what are they thinking about…….
Scott, in my humble opinion……. Yes, The Alliance party are unionist. Policy statement? No! But if it walks like a duck etc etc……..
Fair enough Gearóid that’s your opinion and your entitled to it.
But if your opinion isn’t based around any facts or evidence is it really a correct opinion?
What is the problem you have Scott, with the Alliance party being considered unionist.
Half of the SDLP party are unionist in my view.
Both of these parties will struggle when the time comes to choose one way or another.
The SDLP will be torn down the middle, if as you suggest there are members who want to see a united Ireland which I doubt, they too would risk a split.
I just don’t see it, to me they are a unionist party that have support across the religious divide.
My problem Jessica is that it’s false and has no basis by what the Alliance say or do.
The SDLP are quite clearly Nationalist also because they actually declare themselves it both in Stormont and all over there party literature and there party members say it all the time on the radio. Colum Eastwood said it this week on Talkback if my memory serves me right.
Neither party will be torn down the middle. The SDLP will be delighted that the there objective of a United Ireland has been achieved. The Alliance party will willingly accept the verdict of the people and simply keep talking, as they do now, about the things that matter like hospitals, School and segregation and will continue to push there Liberal agenda within a United Ireland.
The false statements flying about this is staggering.
What makes you think your statements are true and mine are false Scott?
I am giving you my opinion based on decades of my own experience and I assure you that there are plenty of SDLP members who are cringing over the comments Colum has been coming out with in recent times. If they truly support unity, why are they in westminster but not interested in having any presence in the Dail?
This is the same party which came up with post nationalism.
The Alliance and SDLP are quite similar actually.
The SDLP has people who wish Ireland to leave the UK and it has people who wish to remain in the UK and participate in westminster.
The majority would lean towards leaving the UK at some point.
The Alliance party also has people who wish to remain within the UK, some prefer to have a northern Ireland identity than a british identity, some prefer british and there may well be a minority who might even prefer Irish unity though I doubt there would be many and they would not go far in the party if there are people with that view..
The Alliance party come across as unionist to me Scott. This is not spreading falsehood, it is my opinion.
If we are to vote for power sharing, that means voting for one unionist party and one nationalist. What is the point in voting for a party who declare they don’t give a shit one way or another even though the areas they stand in, who votes for them and everything about them is pro union
It is this duplicity you have highlighted which has put me right off them.
I would have more respect for honesty.
My statements are based on facts and on what the Alliance party say and do. Your opinions, which of course are your views, have no basis in ANYTHING the party says and does.
They state clearly that they are neither Unionist or Nationalist. Your basically calling them liars with no evidence to back it up.
Poor stuff really.
Scott mo chara, I am sorry it upsets you to find out the Alliance party is unionist. Your gallant attempts to claim otherwise is sweet and had me welling up at one stage. However you need to read between the lines when it comes to alliance. Sitting on the fence and declaring oneself neutral allthewhile being contented with the status quo(partition) suggests you support it. Simple really. Ignoring the cause of the problem is simply living in denial or at worst deliberate deception.
Noli timere, WT my Saturday night hasn’t been ruined by all these exchanges. I’m glad you enjoy my posts and that it’s warmed your heart. In fairness though it is a little lesson to me on how people really can assert there position without any basis without fact.
Quit Scott, I’m welling up again!
Where do they have councillors? I think that might indicate who votes for them. There are none round here. Not a fan. This sister party stuff is a fairy story, dating back to the sdp/ liberal alliance days. And we know that the Illiterate Democrats are Tories in thin disguise.
Re sister parties. The Labour party is allegedly the party with the most members in NI. However, they don’t stand for election. Odd. Consistent with the gb apartheid stance though.
I thought though that Alliance had declared as unionist in the assembly.
They tend to win most votes in the greater Belfast area. Why this is I’m not sure. Most likely due to cities being more left leaning and cosmopolitan, so more open to Liberal ideas and policies. East Belfast is a strong area for Alliance but there’s no way of knowing what people who vote for them prefer constitutionally.
It’s pretty narrow minded to say Alliance voters from places like East Belfast must be Prods and Unionists. There are Catholics/Nationalists living all over the East of the city you know. There’s a Chapel in the middle of Ballyhackamore on the Newtownards road for heavens sake. It’s not black and white folks
They don’t even stand in Derry! Because they would get no votes, because they are unionists who are ashamed to admit it. I think they would get fewer votes than the Tories, who got 34 votes in the last Westminster election. We expect nothing from English blow ins, but people who actually live here should know better. I think the cannabis guy got more votes than the Tory.
I saw someone on slugger o’toole being entirely happy to say that Alliance was a unionist party.
Scott, their party constitution, the governing document by which the party are bound and to which members must adhere, states categorically that the Alliance party supports the union, thus they are, by self definition, unionist.
If they truly were cross community, why would they support that which divides?
I’ve heard successive Alliance parties say they are neutral on it Mark. There last couple manifesto has been clear that they are cross community and take no stance.
There’s plenty of grey areas in life but this ain’t one of them.
https://allianceparty.org/document/peace-process-papers/1997-multi-party-talks/multi-party-talks-constitutional-matters.doc
Do you have a link to prove this?
No link, but I read their constitution in 1987, 2007 and spoke to their policy officer in 2008 to confirm this.
If you want a link, ring them on monday, I am sure they will oblige.
There’s a document for them in the link above from 1997 Mark.
Seems clear to me. They state that NI is in the U.K. This is neither support or resistance to the current constitutional set up its simply a statement of fact.
They are then quite clear that they support the right of the people of NI to self determination and support whichever decision the people make.
They don’t advocate one way or another.
What policy of there’s do you see as promoting the Union?
well internment for a start.
https://allianceparty.org/article/2005/0000742/speech-by-alliance-leader-to-annual-party-conference
Try the sixth paragraph down on for size billy.
Scott, please refer to what I wrote supra., their party constitution, I seem to remember it is Art. 13, this might be mistaken but, it is there, now, as above, the governing party document, that to which all party members must subscribe, which governs all they do. Party policy is, frankly, in my experience, just tat.
Ask any other lawyer, they’ll tell you the difference
Not a thing about it online Mark, but I will email the party HQ just to see.
Policy is far from tat it’s what a party would do if in government. I wish more people would base there vote on policy in NI
Scott, your gullibility knows no bounds. Do you really believe that what ever a party says is true and without fault?
Take my previous lighthearted reference to the duck scenario. So if a guy approaches you with a little cage in hand and says, ‘what do you think of my racing pigeon?’ Upon gazing into the cage you see a duck. Do you
1. Believe it’s a racing pigeon because he said that’s what it is
Or
2. Follow the advice your mama told you about shady characters and call him a liar, cause with your vast experience in the feathered world, you know it’s a duck!
Just saying like…..
And what Duck like (Unionist) policies do the Alliance party have Gearoid?
I’ve never heard a quack nor seen a waddle from the Alliance party.
The bird metaphors are keeping me in good craic this Saturday night, so cheers for that.
Scott
Stop it with your facts and evidence and all that.
We don’t hold with that nonsense around here
Anecdotes and conspiracy theories are the way to go.
I know Gio
Sorry but after I floated up the Lagan in a bubble someone forgot to tell me that apparently EVERYBODY except SF are Unionists even the SDLP it seems.
My naive mind seems not to be able to see through the complex web of lies and tricks that scoundrels like the Alliance party and SDLP weave to convince us they are not Unionists. Perhaps Professor Moriarty is there leader, only a mastermind like that could come up with such a scheme.
All in all though it’s good fun. Helping me get through my dry January the craic on here.
The topic of this blog was not about whether or not the alliance party were unionist Scott.
Congratulations in your efforts at focussing on irrelevant bullshit to disrupt conversation from the topic at hand.
The fact remains, that some of us feel we would be better off with a united Ireland in a single economy and in a sovereign state.
Some would prefer to be subservient, ruled by England as an add on to GB and remain within the UK even though GB doesn’t give a shit about us.
Well, we have given a shot at remaining within the UK and the DUP have shown just how they intend to abuse this scenario, diverting millions to UDA commanders, creating lucrative schemes for DUP supporters to benefit through public cash pay outs, misleading banks to give out funds off state guarantees, marching bands and orange halls while at the same time trying to cut even minimal funding to Irish language and in such a discriminatory and disgusting manner.
The alliance party are a pro partition party who support northern Ireland being separate from the rest of Ireland. I call that being a unionist and I don’t give a shit whether or not you agree Scott.
Nationalism has given it yet another shot at supporting the union and it has once again failed over unionist bigotry and discrimination and we find ourselves once again at the butt end.off unionist intransigence.
Enough is enough, there can be no more.
Yes Scott and Gio, are the type of folk, during the dark old days, demanded evidence of British state collusion with loyalist militia. (No laughing at the back now you hear)
That’s the spirit WT, speculation is the way forward, without proof is the way forward. As long as “it looks like a duck” or the “dogs in the street” know it then that’s enough for any reasonable for person to assume it’s true.
Quick question though does it have to be a animal metaphor or would “yer man up the road, told me once” do the job ok as well?
Yeah I know Jessica it wasn’t what the main topic of the blog was about, but that’s what happens when you have a conversation with people. It often leads down more interesting areas.
It isn’t a conversation when you are simply rejecting other peoples views as false because they differ from your own.
A 6 county partitioned statelet in Ireland is simply economically unviable even if every single person supported that.
To ignore the impact of the Irish sea is an immovable natural border between Ireland and Britain is foolishness.
To deny or ignore the reality that the man made border within Ireland has nothing but negative impact on both sides is equally foolishness.
Therefore, the real choices are pro union, to support the division of Ireland and forever rely on England to subsidise us over the economic barriers partition causes, in return for control over our lives which will always prioritise the needs of the other island over this one.
Or
Pro unity, where we support Ireland becoming one single economic entity with control over our own island which would benefit both parts in particular the north.
Anything else is La La Land.
The alliance party support maintaining the division of Ireland and accepting things will remain the way they are. That is a preference to remain within the UK and when it suits, the Alliance party have been used to criticise my claims that all unionists were the same to show there is a wide range of views within unionism which I accept.
The Alliance party do indeed cover a wide range of mostly moderate unionist views. There would be big support for a separate northern Ireland identity within the UK which they would like to draw more support from traditionally nationalist communities from to mix with their traditional grassroots unionist vote.
The term unionist doesn’t help achieve this and they see it as a tribal barrier and that is the reason they do not declare unionist.
It does not mean they are not unionist and as you highlighted to me, it is dishonest and why I will not support them where I was considering voting for a respectable unionist party to support Sinn Feins program of respecting all sections of our society.
The Alliance party doesn’t as you as “support maintaining the division of Ireland”. The party policy is that they are not advocating on view or the other. Clearly there view is that it’s up to the people of NI through self determination to decide.
Well I keep asking for examples of Unionist policies that promote or clearly show they are a Unionist party but none has been forthcoming.
I’m just been met with cries that I must be stupidly naive or with unconfirmed anecdotes.
If you’ve read the link I put up below Naomi Long, the Alliance leader states clearly that she is not a Unionist.
Why do you think she is lying to the reporter from the BelTel?
anna lo..lolol how did she ever think anybody would listen to the likes of her.bit of belfast sleggin she was gone crying.see arlenes as bad sf are on twitter condemning people for sleggin her.shes getting some touch on f/b.lol
To determine whether a party is Unionist or Nationalist in the NI context, the only useful measure is how they would campaign in the event of a UI referendum.
The Alliance party would most assuredly campaign to remain in the union and are therefore Unionist.
Where and when have you heard/read that the Alliance party have ever stated that in the event of a border poll they would campaign to remain in the Union?
Naomi Long clearly stated shortly after becoming leader on Talkback that in the event of a border poll the only influence Alliance party members will have on it will be the same as every other citizen. There vote at the polling booth.
Alliance designate as neutral, which means that they support the status quo, ergo ‘the union’. So I think you could safely assume that they are a unionist party.
Designating neutral doesn’t mean a support of the status quo, it means that your party doesn’t identify itself or advocate either Unionism or Nationalism.
Honestly this is fairly basic stuff folks. I recommend people read the parties manifesto.
As opposed to their party constitution? Really, herein, rather than a manifesto, which, in politics is usually lies anyway, is where we find what any political party believes in.
Two political parties here are pro-reunification, the SDLP and Sinn Fein, DUP, Official Unionist and Alliance, are pro-union with Britain, this is the fact, in law there are only fact’s, nothing else matters, the fact is, a political party constitution is what governs their policy, not the other way round.
To wit, the Alliance party are unionist, there is only this one fact, as above, again, ring them and ask for a personal copy of their governing document (constitution) on Monday, you’ll know by Wednesday, come back to us then, with amended belief in the fact.
Here endith the lesson.
Mark
You are the one making the claim despite the evidence.You claim to have seen this statement in the constitution,so produce it.
gio, as above, this I have read in their party constitution twice, I did not, having no interest in maintaining the union, keep a copy, as with Scott above, give them a bell and get a copy yourself.
Had they changed this, again, I believe it is Art. 13, it would have been headline news, even on my extended holidays I have access to six county news so I don’t believe they did so no, not a claim, a fact, just like Sinn Fein constitution states they are in favour of uniting Ireland.
I’m not so sure on this one Freddie. Making an assumption is only that …an assumption. We are where we are because of the threats that unionism made to the British in the past .It’s why we are divided now …and it’s why we are divided …just so…with those simple six counties and not seven , eight or nine instead .Had Northern Ireland been set up with nine counties , Ireland would be re-united long ago.
Things are gradually changing… and will inevitably change ..and every political party will have to do some serious thinking and changing as we go . Alliance have left their options open because they don’t really see themselves as green or orange.They’d prefer something newer than that and hopefully if we get an all-Ireland republic at some stage ,the green and the orange will dissappear from the mix and we’ll just all be citizens of a newly minted country with a new set of values that everyone can call fair , for once…and without exception. In that kind of scenario , there’ll still be a lot of very conservative (previously green and orange ) citizens , because folk here are at base very conservative creatures for the most part.They ‘ll not have personality transplants ….remember….they’ll not be suddenly any brighter …they’ll not be any smarter ,either and they might just vote for the same kind of racist hicks and idiots that have kept this pot boiling for many years and have kept their sticky fingers in our till .
If they do that they’ll have a hell of a percentage of the national vote and a whole lot of influence across this proposed new Ireland and there’ll be a running battle between ultra-right wing Creationist dinosaurs and the left-wing with any liberals playing piggie in the middle .Now just where do you figure a party like the Alliance party and the kind of citizens who would vote Alliance at the moment ,would fit into this new Ireland? They’re not the same kind of people as those who vote for the DUP, after all. I think they currently keep thier options open because they are and probably will be flexible enough to accept change.
Jessica, can you lay out what you think should be PSF’s bottom line for going back into Stormont as the DUP’s bitch?
Within the next 24 months, absolutely nothing at all fiosrach.
There is nothing in their gift to give which could justify that.
I would have nothing more to do with Sinn Fein if they allowed the DUP to return to Stormont as a joint first minister before a sufficient period to prove they have changed which I don’t believe they are capable off.
I would be out on the streets protesting against the whole shebang Sinn Fein included.
Well, I think that after 2 weeks, 2 months or 2 years some job saving, face saving fudge will be produced and PSF will be back at the trough. When you have been the underdog for so long, it will be very hard to change. Máirtín was asked would Acht na Gaeilge be a line in the sand for going back into government with Arlene and he would not commit himself.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/naomi-long-i-am-not-nationalist-or-unionist-its-not-about-politics-of-the-border-35211765.html
For anyone who’s interested.
Tom Ekin( Alliance councillor) bless him, was round my door recently asking me, “What kind of Northern Ireland do you want?” He asked me this on the doorstep in a mixed area without a scintilla of self awareness. Maybe I don’t want any Northern Ireland, I suggested and he smiled as if to question whether I jested or not. Then I said that I would like him to agitate for the removal of all Union flags flying from lamp posts in Belfast and he said that the union flag was the flag of the United Kingdom and was therefore legitimately flying from said lamp posts. Conversation over.
Scott, you’ve repeatedly misspelled the word ‘their’ in your contributions. I wonder if you are an idiot or haven’t yet graduated primary school. A point above was that a party’s constitution outlines its core beliefs. I haven’t checked, but I’m sure that Alliance designates as unionist in this document. The only Alliance person I know, a Catholic, is a unionist, Jesus alone knows why. Why haven’I checked? Because to summarize Jessica, Alliance equals irrelevant bullshit.
Correction: I’m sure the other two members of the Trinity also have an inkling.
Scott, I don’t think you deserve that abuse from Mens sana. I think you put your point across very well without resorting to abuse. Good for you.
Thanks Moser but don’t worry I’ve been kicking about this blog long enough to know that for some people personal abuse is par for the course. It seems to do rightly in the absence of facts or evidence.
You know what they say
“If they’re shooting at you, you know your doing something right”
“If they’re shooting at you, you know your doing something right”
Who said that? Alderdice? Napier? Jeeezzzzzz
Bottom line is the Alliance is the letsgetalongerist party; letsgetalong keeping the status quo. Meanwhile the main cause of the problem, partition, is ignored. Ignoring the problem doesn’t make the problem better. Sin é.
Well I got it from The West Wing TV show WT, but it may have originated somewhere else, I’ll have to pass on that one.
Letsgetonerist or perhaps peaceful coexistence I thought would be a good thing but sure what do I know apparently I’m a naive idiot according to folk on here.
Its not support for the status quo. It’s because the Alliance party doesn’t identify itself or advocate Unionism or Nationalism. Hence there political policies and actions are neither pro Unionism or Nationalism.
For a short list of what they do advocate seem my list above or read there manifesto.
“Its not support for the status quo. It’s because the Alliance party doesn’t identify itself or advocate Unionism or Nationalism. Hence there political policies and actions are neither pro Unionism or Nationalism. ”
More rubbish, and I did point out the pro unionist positions they adhere to, you just chose to ignore them.
This is my response to their position on the constitutional matter you posted which you obviously didn’t bother reading.
https://allianceparty.org/document/peace-process-papers/1997-multi-party-talks/multi-party-talks-constitutional-matters.doc
“1 The constitutional status of Northern Ireland and the principle of consent
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom and is so because that is the choice of a clear majority of its citizens. ”
Until there is an informed debate and a border poll at the end of where the people have heard the pros and cons, the opinions of both governments and the voices of the businesses we rely on for jobs and economic growth, this is not fact but assumption.
It was assumed that a majority of the UK wished to be part of the EU.
This is no different.
“2 The relevance of on-going constitutional change in the UK
Devolution by its nature merits different arrangements in different areas to take account of local needs. Nevertheless in devising a satisfactory scheme of devolution for Northern Ireland it will be necessary to have regard for the emerging schemes for devolution in Scotland and Wales.”
Doesn’t sound like they want a devolved northern Ireland to be considered any less part of the UK than Scotland and Wales.
“3 The entrenchment of arrangements and protections
It will be necessary to ensure the effective entrenchment of those features included in new arrangements which are perceived as being particularly necessary for the protection of rights or of the needs and concerns of particular groups.”
The only way to sustain Northern Ireland within the UK would indeed have been to guarantee the protections of minority groups and in particular the now majority catholic population.
This would have been sensible unionism but unionism has never been sensible.
“4 The protection of human rights
The clear, effective and entrenched protection of human rights is an essential element of any new arrangements. The incorporation of the European Convention on Human Rights in domestic law as proposed by the present British Government would be a very important step in that direction. A similar incorporation by the Irish government would be another positive step, creating an unbreakable framework of shared protection of fundamental rights.”
Again, sensible unionism
“5 The Irish Constitution
Articles 2 & 3 of the Irish Constitution are unclear and unsatisfactory and take no account of the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland. They should be amended so as to clearly embrace the principle of consent. Other aspects of the Irish constitution should be examined with a view to ringing about a constitution which more appropriately reflects the realities and diversities of modern Ireland.”
Correct, the reason is the changes were not to cement partition but a fudge to unionism until there was a majority in favour of unity.
Both governments want Ireland to unite eventually, it is only a matter of timing and keeping the peace until then.
Here the Alliance party are showing their unionism by desiring the changes to the Irish constitution to reflect a permanent divorced identity between the two parts of this island.
This is blatant unionism and would be opposed by nationalism.
“6 The alignment of the two constitutions
Given the importance of removing doubt and establishing new arrangements on a firm foundation it would be valuable to incorporate the principle of consent in the same terms in the Irish Constitution and in an appropriately entrenched form of British legislation.”
Here they go further and want the two Irish identities to be written into law, not only in Ireland but in British legislation also.
This would have prevented the peace process in its tracks and is hard line unionism.
An Armagh citizen is no less Irish than a Cork citizen. This would have legislated differently and would have had the potential to reignite the conflict.
Will the Alliance party support Irish language equality in the north?
Will the Alliance party support Irish citizens having the right to vote for our president?
Will the Alliance party support recognition of the tri colour as the flag which represents the Irish nationalist population in the north?
Will the Alliance party support recognition of Amhrán na bhFiann as the anthem which represents the Irish nationalist population in the north?
If they cannot support any one of the above then they are not neutral and put support for the union above people i.e. they are pro Unionism.
Why is it that you as a self declared unionist Scott, support Alliance and are defending their duplicity so vehemently?
Do you think Irish nationalists are stupid, easily fooled or do not recognise deceit and duplicity when we see or hear it?
Arlene and the DUP thought so, clearly the Alliance still do also.
Don’t confuse tolerance and respect with weakness. The same rope will be passed on to the Alliance party soon enough and we will see just what they do with it.
Ok let’s work through this step by step. There’s a lot here so apologies if I miss something.
Section 1 is a statement of fact or at least how the Alliance party believe things are at this stage in 1997. Which is that that a majority in NI wish to remain in the Union. It’s not saying that they actively promote or advocate the Union. I believe it’s the same today but I can’t be sure of course. If you have any evidence that there is a majority in favour of a UI then I recommend that that you take that evidence and batter down the SOS door and demand he call a border as he is obliged to do under the GFA. You’d have to talk to an Alliance official to confirm this but if the evidence was strongly there then I believe the Alliance party would support that poll as they have spoken extensively about self determination and honouring the GFA.
Section 2 has got nothing to do with orange and green politics is simply a preference for devolution and more local goverment as opposed to centralised government. That’s a liberal policy all over the world.
Section 3 is a belief that minority rights need formal protections in our system. That’s any minority’s right and again doesn’t apply solely to Unionism/Nationalism.
Section 4 is about human rights and yes very sensible.
Section 5 is about removing the claim to sovereignty to NI from the Irish constitution. That’s about having the Irish government embrace self determination of the people of NI.
Section 6 is a further entrenchment of the self determination principle and a wish to have it copper fastened in law through the Irish constitution and the relevant British legislation. The UK doesn’t have a constitution you see. It doesn’t create two identities it just makes self determination a more solid principle. It’s got nothing to do with identity
Ok next
Q1.) yes I think they would support a ILA its in the GFA and they have constantly stuck to the spirit of that agreement.
Q.2) No idea. Although since they don’t have or seek any representatives in the south then they will have no influence in that decision. Email them to find that one out.
Q3 and Q4.) I believe they do. You’d need to check with them though to be sure. All in all though I don’t think its flags and anthems that drives Alliance politicians but that’s just my opinion. Again email and ask.
I hope that’s ok for you Jessica, don’t think i missed anything.
Of course, it is difficult to be duplicitous when flags and anthems are involved.
Ok last one hopefully and these are more personal questions at me than the Alliance than.
I think you basically asking me why I, a Unionist votes Alliance when they aren’t (IMHO) a Unionist party.
Because I base my vote on which party policies best reflect how I think NI should be run. I base it around things like education, health, economics etc etc. I don’t even consider the constitutional question when I vote. I’ll worry about it when or if a border poll happens.
I have a Unionist friend who votes SDLP because he likes there policies. He is of similar opinion to me about voting on policies. I’m not a single issue voter.
No party hits all my buttons I add but I find Alliance the best fit.
“I base my vote on which party policies best reflect how I think NI should be run. I base it around things like education, health, economics etc etc. I don’t even consider the constitutional question when I vote.”
So you think the Alliance party offer the best solutions for education, health, economics etc..?
Ok lets explore that.
You think the Alliance party are not pro union but do not want to look beyond the 6 county border.
Does that not limit their economic policies to the extent of the money successive british governments are prepared to hand over?
Wonderful.
I want the stadium and maze project revived, one capable of hosting someone like Garth Brooks.
I want the land along the motorway around the maze developed for decades, including the troubles museum incorporating the hospital at the maze for authenticity, which would be the biggest tourist attraction on this island by a long way and would transform the economy on this island.
The conflict resolution centre would attract visitors just as the financial collapse tourism worked in Iceland.
I want to see train and road networks linking the maze to Derry, Athlone right to Cork and join up all major cities on this island.
With the tax incentive taking a hit from both US penalties and EU tax harmonization, Ireland needs to find new innovative incentives to guarantee FDI into the future. The Maze land could be offered to multi nationals in return for establishing distribution and drop shopping warehousing and business parks. With train and road networks, jobs could be spread throughout a wide area and help boost the economies outside of Dublin and Belfast.
An all island health service and merged administration would be more efficient, cost effective and would provide the best services.
None of this would be remotely possible with 6 county policies regardless the party. It is only possible through unification and borrowing to invest in our countries future starting with a comprehensive housing construction investment which is needed now.
If education, health, economics and so on are truly your driving factor, then we must have a unification referendum which is the only way to get both governments on board and thinking about what truly is in the best interests of the people here.
It is time we heard the opinions of both governments what future offers the best potential.
That is the only way to escape sectarian politics, not burying your head in the sand which is what some are doing.
Apologies for my poor grammar and limited intellect Mens sana. You know what’s like with us rural Protestant we’re, or is it were?duh, thick as champ.
Anyway I’ll add you to the list of people who can’t point to a what policies are Unionist that the Alliance party pursue. Your comments on the Alliance constitution are slightly strange though. You are SURE that they say explicitly in it that they promote/support the Union, yet you haven’t read the constitution.
Seems strange that you are so sure of something yet you haven’t actually read or checked that document. If you do get a link to the constitution though I’d love to read it.
See above for a few contemporary sources though on what the last two leaders of the Alliance party have said on the issue.
Anyway I have to go now. I need to get back to my crayons and finger painting.
You are entitled to your opinion on Alliance Scott.
So are others.
I have responded to every link you posted about the Alliance position and explained why I still believe they are unionist and I don’t think there is any doubt in my mind about it.
As I said, they may have no choice but to own up in the not so distant future.
Perhaps it is also something that they should be pressed on more. Why should they be allowed to abstain from such an important decision?
I’m afraid I see no response or explaination from you to the links I’ve posted. In the Naomi Long interview for the Belfast Telegraph she stated clearly that she’s not a Unionist nor a Nationalist.
I’ll ask again why do you think she is lying?
They abstain I.e don’t choose Nationalist or Unionist as there designation because they see it as a further segregation of NI society which they don’t see as two communities but one community with two diffrent political positions. I’d imagine although you’d have to ask an Alliance MLA to be sure, but I think that they don’t see it as the most important part of NI politics.
The constitutional question isn’t the guiding star of the Alliance party, as it is with the DUP, UUP, SDLP and SF.
“I’m afraid I see no response or explaination from you to the links I’ve posted.”
Then I will respond to each again separately.
“They abstain I.e don’t choose Nationalist or Unionist as there designation because they see it as a further segregation of NI society which they don’t see as two communities but one community with two diffrent political positions. I’d imagine although you’d have to ask an Alliance MLA to be sure, but I think that they don’t see it as the most important part of NI politics.”
NI politics is in itself segregation, so that doesn’t stack up.
How can you have inclusive politics when a majority of the people see themselves as the same Irish as those south of the border?
There are lots of communities all over Ireland but as I said earlier, the Armagh Irish are equally as Irish as the Cork Irish.
The Alliance support for continued segregation of this island is Irish unionism or more accurately british separatism.
NI politics is dead.
This is the response to the Naomi Long interview link you posted:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/naomi-long-i-am-not-nationalist-or-unionist-its-not-about-politics-of-the-border-35211765.html
“Naomi Long: ‘I am not nationalist or unionist – it’s not about politics of the border’”
“Q. Do you have sympathy with Anna Lo’s long-held views that she could favour a united Ireland?
A. That’s not really news any more, is it? We have known for a very long time that there are people in Alliance holding those views.
It is not what defines Anna’s politics or David’s politics or mine, it is about building a shared future.
There is a whole diversity of opinion within the party but united around the common core vision of wanting Northern Ireland to be a society in which rights are respected and each person is valued.”
Really, who in Alliance holds those views?
Anna Lo came out with it because most of the racism and discrimination is in the pro british community.
She didn’t stick around long in the Alliance party afterwards, why?
Who has dared follow her lead into oblivion within the party since?
We still do not know whether Naomi supports or rejects a united Ireland as she fudged the question well?
We know she claims that Alliance will respect the majority wishes if that is what the majority of people choose, but she then goes on to promote a Northern Ireland within the UK in which rights are respected and each person is valued, that is the guiding star of the Alliance Party, a recognised permanent division between northern and southern Ireland, enshrined in law in both the southern constitution and entrenched in British legislation (Alliance party words).
That is not only fudging the question, it also gives the answer to most people with any wit.
The Alliance are smart unionists who know their limitations but very much promote a unionist agenda.
“I’ll ask again why do you think she is lying?”
Yes, very much so.
She is lying through her teeth and very much supports a separate northern Ireland, constitutionally separate from the south and part of the UK.
As I said, there is nothing wrong with holding this view, the reason I wont vote Alliance is because of the duplicity and deceitfulness of their approach. They are liars indeed and should be pressed on how many in the Alliance party support Irish independence from the UK to prove or absolve them from my accusations of their deceit.
Now you tell me who, if there is any single member of that party supports Irish unity.
This is my response to the link you posted on their stance on internment.
“Para 6
When the party was barely a year old, one of the most telling duties Bob Cooper performed for Alliance was to take a public stance against Internment. It would have been natural for anyone from his background to go along with the actions of a Unionist government. Bob did not. He saw clearly that Internment was morally wrong and likely to be counter-productive. He didn’t duck the issue, but spoke out clearly for the rule of law – and he did it on the day that Internment was introduced. The last week in Westminster shows just how much we need men like Bob. Internment was wrong in 1971 and it is wrong now”
Bob would not be the only pro union rights unionist.
I imagine quite a few unionists would be against human rights abuses.
The fact is says it would have been natural for anyone from his background suggests I am right and he was indeed a unionist.
Perhaps you should show some evidence instead that the Alliance party are not simply opportunist unionists.
Ok I’ll try this one line by line
“NI politics is in itself segregation, so that doesn’t stack up.”
It is certainly the dominant trend in NI politics but since 1970 the Alliance party has tried and desegregate politics here, along with there attempts to desegregate society in general. They haven’t been successful in this obviously because they haven’t won a huge mandate for it in elections.
“How can you have inclusive politics when a majority of the people see themselves as the same Irish as those south of the border”
A slightly loaded question there and I don’t really agree with the premise that a majority in NI want a UI, but we will let that hare sit for a moment. Why can (and must have) inclusive political parties in NI. Because the day to day problems that affect a Protestant Unionist working class person from the Shankill road are almost exactly the same problems that face a Catholic Nationalist working class person from the Falls road. Same goes for a Unionist businessman from Newry and Catholic Businessman from Newry or a Protestant farmer from Deryboye and a Catholic farmer from Darragh cross. To have exclusive politics and political parties means that come Election Day we simply rally to our respective flags regardless of what those parties public policy is.
Now I’m sure there are plenty who disagree with Alliance on all sorts of their liberal left leaning policies. Things like LGBT rights, The EU and abortion means that there are many who will never vote Alliance, but at least people will reject them on the basis of there policies and not on which flag they fly at there party conference.
“There are lots of communities all over Ireland but as I said earlier, the Armagh Irish are equally Irish as the Cork Irish”
Totally agree and I would add that I believe that the people who are sometimes defined as the “Unionist community” (I don’t like the term) are as Irish as anyone else. Slightly diffrent shade but certainly Irish, although culture is a personal thing and not for me to tell anyone what their identity is.
“The Alliance support for continued segregation of this island is Irish unionism or more accurately British separatism.”
Nope that’s not the Alliance position. There position is whatever the majority of the people of NI want is what they want whether it be the UK or UI. They want a inclusive society that celebrates diversity and doesn’t see human beings divided by religion, race, sexual orientation etc etc.
Liberalism and desegregation is the guiding light of the Alliance party not the Union or a United Ireland.
“NI politics is in itself segregation, so that doesn’t stack up. It is certainly the dominant trend in NI politics but since 1970 the Alliance party has tried and desegregate politics here”
I don’t think you understood what I meant Scott.
The Alliance party in catering only the people in 6 or less counties is in itself promoting segregation and considering only people of a pro unionist persuasion.
They are only representing the part of society here that is pro union and they care nothing about others to whom segregation crosses the border.
“A slightly loaded question there and I don’t really agree with the premise that a majority in NI want a UI”
I am in absolutely no doubt that if a border poll debate and referendum started now, both governments would admit the best outcome would be unification, the majority of businesses would support a single all island economy, and the people all over this island would like to see a joined up approach to dealing with the threat of FDI drying up, the housing shortage, homeless and other issues which plague all parts of this island together.
The only reason it isn’t going ahead is because Dublin is not supporting it yet for their own reasons.
“I believe that the people who are sometimes defined as the “Unionist community” (I don’t like the term) are as Irish as anyone else. ”
I agree with you 100% also.
I also dislike the terms nationalist, republican or unionist.
I am Irish first and foremost and every bit as Irish as any person in any county of this island.
The same applies to everyone in the unionist community and the best thing the DUP have ever done was when Paul Givan admitted that Irish was not only for the nationalist or republican community but for all when he restored the Liofa funding.
“Nope that’s not the Alliance position. There position is whatever the majority of the people of NI want is what they want whether it be the UK or UI.”
You are still missing the point, society doesn’t stop at the border Scott.
If the Alliance only care about the opinion of people within the 6 counties and not those who are impacted by partition on the other side, that is a form a segregated politics I want done away with.
It is also a pro unionist position.
In regard to the Naomi Long interview she seems suggest that there are Nationalists in the Alliance party but you don’t expect her to start listing of people’s preferences do you. I’m sure individuals do have opinions on the matter, but the point is the party doesn’t take position.
Anna Lo wasn’t chased out of the Alliance party she retired from politics. If you don’t believe me email her and ask I always found her very helpful.
Don’t really know what to say to the allegation that Naomi Long is lying.
I never suggested Anna Lo was chased Scott.
I said she never made her feelings known before she had already decided to leave the party and was exasperated with racist attitudes in mostly unionist communities which I suppose had nothing to do with her decision to retire from politics, but is speculation and unfair to focus on.
As for what to do about my allegation that Naomi Long is lying and lying through her teeth.
Why not ask her outright, is her preference for a Northern Ireland within the union, yes or no?
To say the Alliance party is indifferent on the issue but only going to stand or represent parts of the 6 counties where the union is popular says it all really.
In fact it is tribalism.
But is it a 6 county tribe versus a 26 county tribe or are the Alliance only interested in parts of the 6 counties where the union is popular?
The truth is, there is only one political party on this island which has proven it can fairly represent all of the Irish people, irrespective of political opinion, religion, sexuality, what county they live in or even their support for the crown.
Can you guess which one it is Scott?
It’s impossible to take you seriously if you can’t spell simple words. It is in no way personal abuse. Fix it.
I’m sure because the person who made the comment is more credible than you due to his higher standards of literacy.
When you post the document on Monday, it will be read avidly.
The cannabis guy got more votes than Alliance in Foyle. Because they have no interest in anything outside their village.
So as promised I emailed the Alliance party via Naomi Longs email address asking if the party has the article 13 which according to Mark explicitly supports the Union. I also asked if it was possible get a link to their constitution. I’ve copied and pasted the response below.
Hi Scott,
The Alliance Party Constitution makes no opinion on the Union. It is a document that outlines the structure of the Party. eg. Party Council, nomination of new Leaders. Moreover, there are only 12 articles in the document. Unfortunately, it is only available to Party members.
In addition, the Alliance Party operates on the basis that it has no set opinion on the status of Northern Ireland. Rather, we operate to serve the people of Northern Ireland regardless of their race, creed or sexuality and it is for them to decide the constitutional nature of Northern Ireland.
If you have any further questions do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards,
Peter
Jessica,
I’m just having a read of this now and think it astonishing that you believed Alliance would actually be in a position to nominate for the First Minister position. If you knew that they were unionists for years, direct from the horse’s mouth as you said, and then said you would give them your second preference, only to change your mind over comments made in this article by someone else, it really doesn’t seem particularly consistent – which is what I’ve said to you before about.
Might I suggest that you say what you mean and mean entirely what you say. There are after all pluralist republican minded people in Alliance, like Anna Lo.
Not sure that I said it was what I believed would happen, more a comment over how the unionist parties were behaving at the time Donal.
What I will say about the Alliance party is that they are respectful and have integrity but I do think they are unionist, though more in a pro status quo fashion as opposed to out and out pro britishness.
They would like to see a northern Ireland flag and identity, to remain within the UK and there is nothing wrong with that, but in my eyes it is still pro union.
I may be wrong, but under the original Good Friday Agreement terms, every party could nominate for first minister and it was majority vote overall which decided.
Since the DUP reneged on the St Andrews which changed this, by reverting, would it not be possible for Alliance to nominate Naomi and along with their own members, Sinn Fein, SDLP and independents to between them vote for a Sinn Fein and Alliance joint first minister?
To my understanding this would indeed be possible and a legitimate outworking from the GFA terms.
Mark would know best though.
No Jessica it would not be possible because Ministries in the Executive are allocated under th D’hont mechanism and not based on who gets voted in by the majority of MLA’s – you need to do your homework on the agreements.
Fair enough Donal
I see why some have the impression the assembly is simply a training ring to get middle unionists used to the idea of working with republicans.
I should add that I don’t believe loyalists would have any issue with it.
And I agree with the person who commented a few comments back that stuff like this, going from one position to a totally different one in the course of an article, does make it difficult to take what you say seriously at times – Naomi Long is more consistent than you, and I have no love for her.
And you’re always going on about how you understand the needs of business, which overwhelmingly supported the peace agreements that you stated you voted against. These are political anomalies. You seem to go from Left to Right to Centre on different things, singing the praises of Sinn Fein one minute and then ridiculing people who articulate their policies the next – suggesting that they should emulate Fianna Fáil, who are centre-right populists. It makes for difficult understanding on what you are actually for and what you are against, which is what I think other people commenting on this are trying to tell you, with due respect – You can have your views as of right, but they are not consistent or easy to comprehend by any means.
I don’t mean to go an about it Donal but the needs of business is very important to me.
I have worked very hard for everything that I have and I simply could not support any party that was anti business. Neither capitalism or business need to be enemies of equality or society. It is greed and corruption that is the problem and they are just as present in even communist governments.
Not sure what agreements you think I voted against, but if you mean the GFA, I never voted for it because it meant Dublin abandoning the north once again.
I accepted it later because it was what a majority of republicans wanted and I am a democrat but I still don’t like it.
I have never said Sinn Fein should emulate Fianna Fail as they are now. I said they should be what Fianna Fail should have been.
The last Taoiseach I have any respect for was Charlie Haughey and he would not be proud today to see what Fianna Fail have become.
In fact I would imagine many Fianna Fail members are none too impressed. I see some of their recent moves such as that on water charges which they now want to drop and pay out refunds on, as potential unrest in their ranks and to avert a risk that members may jump ship into Sinn Fein.
I think Sinn Fein should not discourage that.
I am also very willing to discuss my views. I am not of the impression that they are the answer to all our problems hence they will change so you wont find the consistency you like on every subject. On some subjects I may be very consistent but on others not at all.
Jessica,
For someone who claims to have “pro-business” views, whatever you actually mean by that (usually it means being pro-markets over the interests of employees), I don’t think you realise that monetarism starves business of credit and reduces the equity in the economy overall – giving employees a pay rise increases purchasing power and demand for goods and services supplied by the private and public sectors. So state planning and Keynesian stimulus packages are the basis on which business thrives – neither of which can come about without strong trade unions and worker representation.
To be honest with you, I don’t care whether you can’t support any party which isn’t explicitly pro-market, because there are far more votes to be had in appealing to those who are pro-employees. And we do live in a kind of democratic society. You’ve said you don’t like the sound of these sort of things because you fear what it might do to your lifestyle – assuming you’re not owning and running a large multinational corporation, it wouldn’t do anything to harm what asset you suggest you have because nobody is advocating taking a small business into public ownership and dividing up its profits.
On your point about Fianna Fáil, I like Charlie too. But here’s a fact for you – you can’t be for the bosses interests and also be for the workers interests, it is paradoxical because the two classes approach the economy from different agendas. You cannot have equality within a market economy, because the importance and life-chances of each citizen are dependent upon their value to a labour market – thus why women are still discriminated against, and the disabled. You need to move to a planned, mixed economy – the kind which Harold Wilson presided over, or for that matter, President Eisenhower (a Republican).
Someone who is prepared to change their views so regularly on things comes across as someone who has no core and bottom line. You seem to believe that we should have a reunited Ireland but that economically things should stay generally as they are, to why I query – what would have been the point in a century of mass struggle and sacrifice to simply have Irish people preside over a punitive regime against working people?! I don’t think you really understand the underlying nature and class basis to Irish republicanism, which is quite different from the nationalism you appear to espouse, if I’m honest with you.
And I’m not saying that to get at you but I think you would find, and benefit financially, from a Keynesian economic system where ordinary people had money to pay for the goods or services which your business produces. This is not a far left idea as you have claimed previously – Franklin Roosevekt was no Marxist; Clement Attlee was not a Trot. This is common sense and the golden era of capitalism, from the end of the 40’s to the late 70’s occurred under the economic model which I have consistently been advocating for – and which you have consistently been criticising.
Donal, I am a strong supporter of Keynesian economics, which is based on capitalism and a strong private sector so you are now speaking my language.
To say that “monetarism starves business of credit and reduces the equity in the economy overall” doesn’t really make sense to me.
I would say it is not only prudent to control the amount of money in circulation, usually through a central bank, but it is also a central part of Keynesian thinking. Increasing money levels by basically printing more money is one example of how monetarism will of course have a negative impact on export markets and reduce the value of the currency and the capital assets within a country. But counter measures could encourage borrowing and increase spending sustaining local economies so it works both ways. Your sentence in itself is illogical.
“giving employees a pay rise increases purchasing power and demand for goods and services supplied by the private and public sectors.”
It would, especially if there is confidence in the economy to encourage spending. Increasing wages in the middle of a recession for example would probably put more businesses into administration which would hardly help matters but generally well managed businesses wouldn’t do that.
If you are just making a general statement fair enough but I would be more interested in how does it stand with a previous statement on another of your blogs where you suggested reducing the wages of the politicians we expect to lead the country to that of the average industrial wage?
In would have expected reducing peoples wages to go against the principals of Keynesian economics.
Would you not agree?.
“To be honest with you, I don’t care whether you can’t support any party which isn’t explicitly pro-market, because there are far more votes to be had in appealing to those who are pro-employees.”
Are you saying the Sinn Fein party do not value my vote or my support?
Can you clarify on what authority is this coming from? Is this Donal telling me I don’t matter or is it Sinn Fein telling me to get lost?
“And we do live in a kind of democratic society. You’ve said you don’t like the sound of these sort of things because you fear what it might do to your lifestyle – assuming you’re not owning and running a large multinational corporation, it wouldn’t do anything to harm what asset you suggest you have because nobody is advocating taking a small business into public ownership and dividing up its profits.”
I could laugh at this Donal but I should probably cry.
My lifestyle, I work longer hours than any of my employees, why do you think I can post so much on this site, I work about 14 hours a day and weekends on top.
I get paid less than other people I employ.
Far from being a multi national, I am not yet at a point where I can take a week off with peace of mind.
My day will come though, hard work does pay off if it doesn’t kill me first.
“But here’s a fact for you – you can’t be for the bosses interests and also be for the workers interests, it is paradoxical because the two classes approach the economy from different agendas. You cannot have equality within a market economy, because the importance and life-chances of each citizen are dependent upon their value to a labour market – thus why women are still discriminated against, and the disabled. You need to move to a planned, mixed economy – the kind which Harold Wilson presided over, or for that matter, President Eisenhower (a Republican). ”
Bullshit.
There are plenty of good employers who not only give people a chance, help them get up the ladder and treat them well.
And in what way are women still discriminated against by employers? Give me one example.
You are reading too many books Donal. These words are not your own and not from first hand experience.
“Someone who is prepared to change their views so regularly on things comes across as someone who has no core and bottom line. You seem to believe that we should have a reunited Ireland but that economically things should stay generally as they are, to why I query – what would have been the point in a century of mass struggle and sacrifice to simply have Irish people preside over a punitive regime against working people?! I don’t think you really understand the underlying nature and class basis to Irish republicanism, which is quite different from the nationalism you appear to espouse, if I’m honest with you.”
Where have I ever said things should stay as they are?
I am not the one between us bereft of ideas.
I have posted many times lots of proposals for the economic changes needed post reunification.
I even wrote a blog on a roadmap for reunification.
Your problem is you don’t listen to anyone else and are too full of your self to hear anyone else’s views.
And if Irish republicanism cannot get over its hang-ups over class then the people of Ireland will move on without them.
Time to wake up and smell some coffee.
“And I’m not saying that to get at you but I think you would find, and benefit financially, from a Keynesian economic system where ordinary people had money to pay for the goods or services which your business produces. This is not a far left idea as you have claimed previously – Franklin Roosevekt was no Marxist; Clement Attlee was not a Trot. This is common sense and the golden era of capitalism, from the end of the 40’s to the late 70’s occurred under the economic model which I have consistently been advocating for – and which you have consistently been criticising.”
Keynesian economics will not provide people with money to pay for goods or services Donal.
It is support for the theory that economies go through cycles, basically good times and bad times.
In good times, it would be prudence and keeping something in reserve but encouraging growth in private sectors.
In bad times it would be to discourage price drops and wage drops by investing in public sector projects to help sustain the economy.
For example, we have thousands of families in Ireland homeless, putting money into major housing construction projects would keep the economy stable should there be a reduction in FDI over US tax changes. This would keep money in peoples pockets and spending as you suggest.
And I have never claimed this is a far left idea.
I know perfectly well the difference.
I criticised you for claiming we should reduce wages to an average industrial wage.
This would only serve to drive our most talented people out of the country to pursue better opportunities elsewhere.
Jessica,
I won’t be commenting again on anything that you write because of the content of your replies – you don’t even know what monetarism is based on what you’ve just written, it is the total opposite to what you wrote. Your grammar is wanting, as someone wrote previously, and you resort to expletives because you have no intelligent logic behind what you write in response. It’s embarrassing, literally. Go back and read the stuff you write.
I’m telling you that if you look at any Sinn Fein manifesto or listen to any speech from their economics and finance or labour spokespersons, you will unambiguously see that they stand on a raft of pro-employee policies and do not have a pro-market agenda at the expense of ordinary working people – I’m sorry but you are vouching for the wrong party if you think they do, it’s as simple as that, and the reason they won’t go into government with a party like Fine Gael is because that would mean having to accept the sort of morally repugnant economic ideas which you seem to be so fond of.
You really need to stop telling people to not read books and start picking some up for yourself because there is no intellectual basis to the stuff you write and most people find it extremely difficult to comprehend. In fact you are anti-intellectual and so ignorant of facts for someone your age that it’s a wonder you even have this business you keep harping on about.
I really don’t know what you wish to achieve by writing by you certainly aren’t swaying anyone to your point of view or motivating them towards your “ideas”.
Slan!
I don’t know what I wrote to make you not want to converse with me Donal but I did not use any expletives.
You keep telling me I am not intelligent and have nothing to offer or that my grammar is wanting. I have not done the same to you.
For someone supposedly opposed to class differential and promoting equality, I find your attempts to belittle me for how I speak or my not being intellectual enough to converse with are rather at odds with those ideals. Sorry if I am not good enough to converse with you but I am happy with the way I am.
I like conversing with people and I find we can learn from anyone at least if we are prepared to listen.
I have never said anything that could be construed as being at the expense of ordinary working people and why are you declaring me a Fine Gael supporter?
I am not trying to push people towards my ideas, I am putting out points of view and listening to what people say in response.
You get feedback from people from all parts of the country and I find it interesting and often enjoyable.
I have never been called an anti-intellectual before.
I’d love to know just what this business venture of yours actually is because it’s definitely nothing to do with politics, economics or journalism – otherwise you’d have gone redundant years ago.
On the point of criticisms – do you really think someone as well read as me cares what you think of what I write? Who do you reckon people think has better and more informed arguments in their writings Jessica? Honestly? Wise up.
“On the point of criticisms – do you really think someone as well read as me cares what you think of what I write?”
Sorry, I forgot I was beneath you and not worthy to criticise lord Donal.
“Who do you reckon people think has better and more informed arguments in their writings Jessica? Honestly? Wise up.”
Is that what is getting your back up, who people think is the better writer?
I am not a writer and my work has absolutely nothing to do with politics, economics or journalism. No one in any of those fields has anything to fear employment wise from me.
I usually write off the top of my head and get too emotional at times.
I will happily acknowledge you are the better writer, you are most definitely better read. I wouldn’t even read a manifesto, I would rather listen to people on the radio or in person and judge them on what I hear both in words and reading between the lines and body language.
Manifestos can change, people usually don’t.
You have more to learn than you think and your ego is astronomical.
Get over yourself
Jessica,
I have not said I am above anyone, so don’t mix my words. I am saying to you that some of what you are saying, particularly on economic things and what you seem to think Sinn Fein does or should stand for, does not hold up to facts. It’s as simple as that. You’re ridiculing me for reading too much and being too informed about things and at the same time ridiculing my ideas as being somehow bonkers when that’s an anomaly in itself.
I don’t think you understand Keynesian economics, I think you do react emotionally to thinks and your gut instinct tells you that progressive taxation would hit small businesses when it would not and does not need to. Nor would you have anything to lose from taking some corporations into public ownership and giving employees a pay rise to spend their monies in businesses like yours. Especially when the cost to the taxpayer, including you and I, would actually be less for us to own those utilities rather than subsidising multinational enterprises which care nothing for our national interest.
I read some of your articles and think that you are an admirer of Margaret Thatcher because you’re articulating the same economic model as she did, albeit with a more humane tinge. People have gotten poorer under free market capitalism and wages are stagnant. So you cannot seriously expect that because one person like you dislikes left wing economic ideas that other people should not articulate them or parties should bend over backwards to please a small number of people who possess your mindset – you couldn’t win an election with that level of support because most people feel as though the system is rotten to the core.
If you value feedback then I will give you some constructive suggestions
1. Maintain consistency. Say what you mean and mean what you say.
2. Decide whether you are left or right, not hovering in the centre. Politics is the clash of ideas.
3. Have a strong sense of values and ethos, including knowing who you stand with, and reflect that clearly in what you write.
4. Don’t react emotionally to topics which require you to think strategically. At the end of the day, republicanism needs to win over minds via the economic and intellectual argument for reunification while unionism focuses on an emotional attachment to a failing idea.
Donal, we should not be ridiculing each other period.
But there is nothing wrong with challenging each others views, in fact I consider it to be healthy.
But thank you for a more constructive response.
And I am not trying to mix your words, but accept we possibly are, but more because we are arguing rather than listening to one another respectfully.
First of all I am not ridiculing you for reading too much.
Reading and learning from others through written word is essential to gaining knowledge and understanding, but in isolation it is flawed.
It is only one half of an equation. We can read an instruction manual on how to fly a plane, but it is not until we have real world first hand experience that we truly learn and can say that we know how to fly a plane.
My main business is helping other businesses to work better and smarter through the use of technology.
To many I would be considered a nerd.
I am also outsourced by other big businesses as a consultant and would advise government departments on their own use of technology, security and business continuity and have done so in Ireland, Northern Ireland and England.
Nothing that makes me a better writer, economist or a journalist, none of which I have ever claimed to be proficient at.
That is a good question regarding what Sinn Fein stand for. I have never read any manifesto, nor do I ever intend to.
I judge people on what they say, how they behave, my impressions and gut feeling.
And I am not ridiculing your ideas.
I did not agree with you on Ireland paying its government ministers an average industrial wage and spoke out.
I also gave reasons, that we would not get the best people and our young people who might be the best could go elsewhere.
This is not blind criticism, you have yet to respond to that suggestion.
“I don’t think you understand Keynesian economics,”
Political and economic strategies are very complex Donal and there is no one size fits all solutions which will suit every society.
There are many points of view and valid trains of thought. I doubt the worlds best experts would all agree on everything.
“I don’t think you understand Keynesian economics, I think you do react emotionally to thinks and your gut instinct tells you that progressive taxation would hit small businesses when it would not and does not need to.”
I would describe Keynesian economics as being a cautious, practical and common sense approach, that economies have good times and bad times and that these regularly occur in cycles, so it is prudent to prepare in the good times to be ready to step in with public money in bad times to prop up the economy and keep things ticking over until there is a natural recovery.
You mentioned monetarism and that I did not understand this concept either.
It is controlling the amount of money in circulation. If people are going daft, borrowing and spending that inflation is increasing too rapidly as it did with the housing bubble, then interest rates go up to slow the economy down. If things are dire and people are afraid to spend, then interest rates go down and money is pumped into the economy as a stimulus to get things moving again. When large volumes of debt are involved and that is not an option, printing money is the last resort as it devalues a currency and therefore a nations assets.
Now, to the best of my knowledge, both of those are reasonable and accurate descriptions. If you disagree than I challenge you to do better.
“Nor would you have anything to lose from taking some corporations into public ownership and giving employees a pay rise to spend their monies in businesses like yours. Especially when the cost to the taxpayer, including you and I, would actually be less for us to own those utilities rather than subsidising multinational enterprises which care nothing for our national interest.”
As the CEO of a corporation, lets say I was on your target list as an example, how would you plan to take my business into public ownership?
Are you going to offer me lots of money or in a hostile take over.
Either way, I can give you my response. “are you fuck”.
And I don’t mean to be offensive in that, I do have a potty mouth and will work on it.
Next, lets say you do take it over.
Who is going to run it?
You have already decided to give the employees a pay rise, without even seeing the books or understanding whether the business can afford it.
Or is the public purse going to support these pay rises?
Have you any respect at all whatsoever for the hard work that goes into corporations and keeping people in employment?
You might be able to sell that to the people on the street who wont see beyond a pay rise, but it you don’t listen to the businesses who maintain our economy and fill the coffers of our public purse then your words will never be anything other than words.
Now, to where I agree with you on. I am absolutely against the globalisation of markets, I am absolutely against the unfair subsidising of multinational enterprises and I agree wholeheartedly that they care nothing for our national interest.
Over 90% of corporations are domestic, not multinational and they contribute over half of the tax revenue raised in Ireland.
Yet they receive all of the subsidies and tax breaks, even the disgusting sweetheart deals.
I am fine with the low corporation tax and accept it would be a risk to increase this at present. But multi nationals should not benefit the most from government funding. They do so because political parties get better publicity for single large scale new jobs, where as 10 times the number of jobs spread throughout the country in smaller operations offers little PR and therefore election prospects.
So already we see the true nature of government and why corruption is ever present. And you expect us to trust elected representatives with our livelihoods?
When politicians screw up, governments can be replaced. If you screw up our corporate business then we are screwed and it would be not so easily resolved.
“I read some of your articles and think that you are an admirer of Margaret Thatcher because you’re articulating the same economic model as she did, albeit with a more humane tinge.”
Where am I articulating the same economic model as Margaret Thatcher?
I am outlining the same economic model of Jeremy Corbyn who was thwarted by the media as left wing when his economic model was based on Keynesian economics and in my view was sound. I also believe this was deliberate and proves these islands have an unhealthy control from the media.
“People have gotten poorer under free market capitalism and wages are stagnant. So you cannot seriously expect that because one person like you dislikes left wing economic ideas that other people should not articulate them or parties should bend over backwards to please a small number of people who possess your mind-set – you couldn’t win an election with that level of support because most people feel as though the system is rotten to the core.”
Well, I will never be standing for election so my views should not be considered holistic, but they are valid and should be given due consideration.
I would prefer to hear different points of view and to discuss them in public which is why I like this site, they have to stand up to public scrutiny.
And economies needs change, so you cannot have a static constant unwavering view as they go through cycles, remember.
“1. Maintain consistency. Say what you mean and mean what you say.”
Arlene was consistent. I do men what I say but I am not beyond accepting I may get things wrong should someone point them out to me.
“2. Decide whether you are left or right, not hovering in the centre. Politics is the clash of ideas.”
Centre left is a valid view.
I would advocate critical public services should be state owned but privately managed as per the Scandinavian models emerging.
“3. Have a strong sense of values and ethos, including knowing who you stand with, and reflect that clearly in what you write.”
I stand with the people of Ireland who want to see this island become one country, with a strong economy, good prospects for our children’s future.
I want to see investment in renewable technologies and a confidence in our peoples ability to make Ireland one of the best countries on this planet to live in.
I will stand with those who put that first and not tie a noose of a single ideology around their necks.
“4. Don’t react emotionally to topics which require you to think strategically. At the end of the day, republicanism needs to win over minds via the economic and intellectual argument for reunification while unionism focuses on an emotional attachment to a failing idea.”
I cant help being emotional.
I love my country, I cannot stand being part of the UK.
I am frustrated that opportunities are being squandered over prejudice and bigotry.
I refer to the failed projects at the Maze, the narrow water bridge, the delays in the A5 and A6 roads. All stifled to prevent economic growth because it would increase satisfaction with Sinn Fein among the public. How can we not get emotional about such crass behaviour?
Let me finish, that I accept you are well read and have a greater understanding of academia and are more intellectual than I.
I do not need to read about how the economy is doing, I know as I meet with and discuss many businesses performance regularly and when manufacturing in particular are spending money with me and telling me they cannot keep pace with demand and need help becoming more efficient, then I am well aware things are ok long before they appear on the news.
And one more thing that I do understand. Ireland will never, ever tolerate the state taking our businesses, our land or our property from our people.
And another thing.
Criticism is doing you good as I find your views more palatable of late.
It does us all good from time to time, myself included.
But could I advise you however against telling people their vote and support doesn’t matter.
Not least when you don’t know the first thing about the person you are even speaking to.
Jessica,
Your replies are too long and are monologue like. I don’t have the time to go into every detail but again you make a vast sweeping statement as a matter of fact which is actually entirely incorrect;
– You stated that Ireland will never tolerate the state taking over businesses? Sorry but what is NAMA doing??? It is a state owned bank which nationalised bad loans and assets, including businesses, to try to recover that money for the taxpayer and make profit. See what I mean when I say people know you don’t understand what you’re talking about. For someone who runs a business, you have a very cavalier and flawed approach to both reading and gathering fact from inclination. I’m just being honest with you.
I’m not being rude but please don’t come on here having admittedly never read a Sinn Fein manifesto or any books on economics and think you can lecture people on your “sound” fiscal and republican ideas. It is the height of ignorance and I say that to you respectfully. I don’t want feedback from someone who admits stuff like that but I appreciate you taking the time to reply. I seriously would advise you to read more in as polite a way as possible
I can be a tad busy myself so ill be brief
Linking sinn fein policies with nama wasn’t what I expected but is as much as I need to hear from you
“Keynesian economics will not provide people with money for goods and services”
Lmao.
Have you had a few too many drinks Jessica, love? Are you okay? Do you need glasses? That’s the impression I’m getting.
No Jessica it was the principle I am talking about, which in case you haven’t noticed is already in practice by a Fine Gael and previously a Fianna Fáil government. I think it just serves to show how thick and ignorant you really are. Good luck getting people to take your views seriously Comrade!