Ireland has always been tribal, it has never truly been one united people but is moving in that direction, despite efforts to foster division by successive southern establishment governments.
Party politics, greed and power are bigger drivers than equality, fairness, humanity and compassion.
In recent times, we have realised more that division on this island has failed both sides of the border. Homelessness is just as abhorrent to all of our people whether it be in Dublin, Belfast, Derry or Cork and this is a growing issue in every corner of this island.
Waiting lists and the inability of our A&E to deal with demand is the same, water charges, austerity and jobs, education and welfare are the same issues right across this island. In such a small island, can we really afford to have two separate everythings?
Can there be one ruling on abortion in one part of the island and a different ruling in the other?
It could I suppose be seen as a win win or a lose lose. Either way, it just doesn’t make sense.
Northern Ireland doesn’t make sense and that is what a growing population in all parts of Ireland are coming to realise.
Who benefits from division?
The conflict is over for good and the truth about tribalism in Ireland is being revealed.
It is not about two warring tribes in the north and never was.
There is the 6-county tribe who don’t see beyond the 6-county border.
This group is divided yet again with those who feel they are anti-segregation but want nothing to do with the community across the road on the other side of the artificial border in Ulster. Usually they are based away from the border and I suppose out of site out of mind.
Hypocrites some might feel, and such is my own view. All for integration just so long as it is limited to the people of the 6-county tribe.
Then there is the 26-county tribe, who were brought up to believe the 6-county tribe were a tribe of maniacs and the border was a road to the twilight zone where Ireland stopped and an apocalyptic wasteland began. They are terrified of the 6-county tribe.
Then there is the 32-county tribe who think both the 26- and 6-county tribes are fools and that we should unite and be one for the benefit of all.
Which tribe are you? And don’t dare say you aren’t tribal.
At some point in the not too distant future there will be a cross border vote on reunification.
A hundred years ago the British government gave way to threatened violence by a tiny minority of the residents of Ireland and went back on their promise of Home Rule for the entire island.
Partition came into being.
This resulted in a century of acrimony and violence.
So if there is a vote by the majority of both parts of the island for reunification and the unionist minority once again threatens violence will HMG have learned its lesson and stand up to them ?
“A hundred years ago the British government gave way to threatened violence by a tiny minority of the residents of Ireland and”
A hundred years ago the British government gave way to actual violence by a tiny minority of the residents of the British Isles.
“Partition came into being. This resulted in a century of acrimony and violence.”
It didn’t. ‘Partition’ was the result of acrimony and violence not the cause of it.
I think you really need resume O Level study on the Curragh mutiny and Carson.
“I think you really need resume O Level study on the Curragh mutiny and Carson.”
Why do you think that?
“Why do you think that?”
I’m no expert in History MT, though I studied it up to A Level standard and my bedroom at one point was more like a Library than an actual bedroom due to books, most of which was on History but your interpretation of History here really is deluded and far fetched. Most of all, it simply isn’t true. I judge that not only on your comments above but on all your previous comments on this site.
Your not the only Unionist to have this crazy and untrue view of History MT. We had Ruth Patterson and other DUP figures saying that St Patrick was a Protestant…..1,000 years before Protestantism even existed and despite Patrick being a follower of the Pope. I have heard from other Unionists who proclaimed that they have been in “Ulster” for, I quote, “thousands of years”. The best one has got to be that when the Act of Union was formed that everyone had equal rights lol The list goes on. Ian Paisley Snr even believed Ulster Protestants were one of the Lost Tribes of Israel….
I know your only believing in what you want to believe (which is hardly the right thing to do) but facts are facts.
I know a lot of Unionists aren’t like this but I do feel that Martin McGuinness has a point that a lot of Unionists, particularly Unionist politicians, have psychological issues. You have to have something wrong with you if you refuse to believe in the most basic of facts…..
So maybe Mark is right, Education would be good for you MT.
I’m no expert in History MT”
That’s for sure.
“your interpretation of History here really is deluded and far fetched.”
What makes you say that?
“Most of all, it simply isn’t true.”
What isn’t true? Let’s see some examples.
.
“We had Ruth Patterson and other DUP figures saying that St Patrick was a Protestant…..1,000 years before Protestantism even existed and despite Patrick being a follower of the Pope.”
Well, I fear you missed her point. I actual fact, Patrick *wasn’t* a follower of the Pope, Rome not having any authority over the early Celtic church. Of course he wasn’t a Protestant in the technicial and literal sense, but the point being made waa that theologically he was closer to post-Reformation Protestantism than Roman Catholicism.
You see, the whole point of the Reformation was to return the Church back to its original theology, before unbiblical doctrines had been added by Rome.
So, Ironically, you’ve just exposed your own ignorance of history.
“I know your only believing in what you want to believe (which is hardly the right thing to do)”
What am I believing that I want to believe?
“but facts are facts.”
Obviously. What facts have I got wrong?
I”You have to have something wrong with you if you refuse to believe in the most basic of facts…..”
What basic facts do I refuse to believe?
“So maybe Mark is right, Education would be good for you MT.”
Ironically it’s your own lack of education that causes you to have such a narrow view of history, an inability to appreciate alternative interpretations, a belief that alternative interpretations are ‘factually’ wrong, and a false confidence in your own understanding.
I await with interest your list of ‘facts’ that I have got wrong.
And remember this non-evidence-based criticism comes from someone who believes “The Irish have been enslaved as cruelly as any African was., an unhistorical opinion that is driven by an attitude of competitive victimhood by association, which indicates a lack of self-esteem.
Simple really MT, the cause of partition of my country, was the above facts, the very real threat of mutiny by the officer corps of the British occupation force combined with the illegal importing of gun’s by the ‘loyalists’ to, again, threaten the stability of the country.
Just an aside, ‘British isles’, why? Scotland, Celtic, Wales, Celtic, Cornwall, Celtic, Ireland, Celtic, time to change the name to respect the identity of the majority.
“Simple really MT, the cause of partition of my country, was the above facts, the very real threat of mutiny by the officer corps of the British occupation force combined with the illegal importing of gun’s by the ‘loyalists’ to, again, threaten the stability of the country”
The cause of ‘partition’ of ‘your country’ was the desire of the unionist people not to be part of a nationalist state. The cause of the partition of ‘my country’ was the desire of the nationalist people no.longer to be part of it.
“Just an aside, ‘British isles’, why? Scotland, Celtic, Wales, Celtic, Cornwall, Celtic, Ireland, Celtic, time to change the name to respect the identity of the majority.”
What a strange comment. The Celts were the original Britons. Only someone lacking in self-esteem would object to the long established geographical name.of the islands.
Now, would mind answering the question? Why do you think I need to ‘resume O Level study on the Curragh mutiny and Carson’?
Ref. my yesterday comment on resuming studies of O’ Level history,
#Well, I fear you missed her point. I actual fact, Patrick *wasn’t* a follower of the Pope, Rome not having any authority over the early Celtic church’
The boul St. Patrick was not Celtic, he was Roman, again, just a wee historical fact.
I’m afraid I couldn’t claim to be very educated when it comes to history, but I was under the impression that the Celts were pagan and not Christian and certainly not church goers as MT suggests.
in fact, was it not St Patrick who brought Christianity to the Celtic pagans and the reason this young Welshman is the patron saint of Ireland in the first place?
I just wonder would we not have been better off without Christianity and had we remained Celtic pagans. Christianity does not seem to have brought a lot of positives to Ireland.
“I’m afraid I couldn’t claim to be very educated when it comes to history, but I was under the impression that the Celts were pagan and not Christian and certainly not church goers as MT suggests.”
You do realise Patrick founded the Christian church in Ireland? That’s why he’s our patron saint.
“Ref. my yesterday comment on resuming studies of O’ Level history,
#Well, I fear you missed her point. I actual fact, Patrick *wasn’t* a follower of the Pope, Rome not having any authority over the early Celtic church’
The boul St. Patrick was not Celtic, he was Roman, again, just a wee historical fact.:
I never mentioned Patrick’s ethnic identity, so I’m not sure of the relevance of the comment. However, as a Briton, from what we now know as Wales, I believe, surely Patrick would have been a Celt?
A friend of mine always calls religion the curse of Ireland.
Sometimes I think he has a point.
Jessica, one thing I don’t do is rely on modern day sources for my knowledge of history.
St. Patrick, brought here by Niall of the nine hostages was son of a Roman centurion, hence the Christianity.
The Roman’s had of course determined their occupation by the time Niall took the young Patrick from his home but, just like here post 1922, not all of them went home.
This was the teaching of our Headmaster at National school, I’d believe him rather than easily edited stuff on-line.
On the pagan thing, nah, but we could have done without the Norman’s.
Scott, your friend is right, although it’s the curse of all lands. The Royal Vatican/the British Royal family are two cheeks of the same ass. Ruling by fooling both of them.
Why are we even talking about a border poll ? No need to complicate things ……. England need to fuck off out of our country!
“Why are we even talking about a border poll ? No need to complicate things ……. England need to fuck off out of our country!”
‘England’ isn’t in any country other than England.
We may no longer have British terrorists and war criminals patrolling our streets but, their masters are still envolved in my country’s affairs.
“We may no longer have British terrorists and war criminals patrolling our streets but, their masters are still envolved in my country’s affairs.”
Eh?
They had green uniforms, carried guns , drove big armoured vehicles, big forts surrounding nationalists areas . Killed little kids with plastic bullets. Interned people. Trained and helped loyalist death squads to murder innocent Catholics. Should I go on ? Eh?
Sorry Jessica, I know you didn’t mention border poll in your post. I was responding to a different post – least I thought I was. However, my point still remains the same.
No problem moser.
And if they refuse, how should we make them?
Good question Jessica: by politics and, by not letting England off the hook for their involvement in the shame and misery they have bestowed upon us. The assembly give England a legitimacy they do not deserve. You can engage with unionism all you want, but it will achieve nothing. We need to engage more with the people in England. After all, isn’t their government envovled in our affairs ?
The assembly proved beyond any doubt the unionism is not capable of sharing power.
That they will act in the interests of only their own.
That they would discriminate and abuse control to line their own pockets and basically steal public money on behalf of orange halls and to cater for their own people without any consideration for other communities.
The disgusting email sent out by Paul Givan will not be forgotten easily.
If that it what the unionist people choose to support, then politics has gone as far as it can and it is time for equal rights to be demanded just as civil rights were demanded in the 60s.
Enough is enough
Jessica, I am of the 32 county tribe but don’t agree of your description of same.
“32-county tribe who think both the 26- and 6-county tribes are fools”
I do not think either or both are fools, but rather are of equal status with different traditions. I like to think that the forthcoming elections it is about respect and equality for all citizens. It now remains to be seen if the electorate share my view.
We have more in common than divides us and this will become all to obvious now during Brexit.
Enjoyed the blog, and yes – your summary of three tribes brings home some honest truths we must all think about.
I always seem to run into this problem Hugh.
I would be of the opinion that unionism is sectarian bigotry, but I know not every unionist could be described as a sectarian bigot.
Likewise, I did not mean to infer that everyone who supports division were fools, just that the enforced division on such a small island is in itself foolish.
Having said that, I would not agree that we are equals or have equal status with different traditions on this island.
The 26 county tribe elect their false and cowardly chieftains who have erased the north eastern 6 counties from the map and tell ghost stories to frighten young children from ever going near the disenfranchised crazies in the north who are descended from monsters with two heads and forked tongues, while 6 county tribe look towards false idols from a far off land and re-live 16th century ideals as a way of life in a perpetual groundhog day, where nothing exists beyond the orange realm save for the great royal cash cow to suckle its subjects and its rabid attack dogs occasionally sent over to keep the other tribes in their place.
But I do also look forward to the day when there will be respect and equality for all citizens on this island, where Irish citizens in the north are re-enfranchised with the rest of the island and not considered collateral damage for the relative peace and harmony division brought to the southern part of the island.
Well Jessica, ouch, ouch!!
You certainly put it into perspective and I cannot but agree with your analyses. However, I’m going to hang on in with my optimistic bubble, well at least until the election is over!
Billy, if you are following……. I understand now your definition of 4th. Tribe. May’be you could re-evaluate the political landscape and look a bit further down the track. What about a ‘New Ireland’ with a new constitution and a Bill of Rights? Unionists who now make up less than 2% of representatives in the House of Commons would hold 25% in a national All Ireland Parliament. That is a position of considerable power and influence and could shape that future of a new order in Ireland . The reality is that the majority of voters did not opt for Brexit in N.Ireland. So Billy consider it as a possible option.
So Jessica, in the pursuit of that Utopia I will support Sinn Féin and the principled Martin McGuinness, cross my finger and continue to hold my breath. Billy, you and I can discuss the merits of Paul on the road to Damascus.
Is é an todhchaí, ár bpáistí
whos paul.never heard the road of damascus is it rock,punk or what.heard this is the road to hell.think cris rea done it…make a good national anthem for here.rd to hell.
I don’t think billy is a unionist Hugh.
I have a feeling he is from a republican background but has since given up all hope for this island and will instead just enjoy taking the piss out of the politics of failure, something we have more than your average share off.
As for the unionist block making up 25%, more if they worked with nationalists in the north and protestants throughout Ulster, but that would be sensible and unionism does not do sensible.
I agree that Sinn Fein were indeed pursuing that Utopia and no one put more effort into reconciliation than Martin McGuinness, but the reality is that it has failed and enough is enough. The reconciliation malarkey is over.
I don’t know about you, but my children’s future will not be playing second fiddle to a Dublin elite or a bunch of unionist sectarian bigots.
Both need to fall, starting with Dublin.
Jessica, Billy and now Mark, your sense of frustration and disillusionment is palpable to the point of anger. But the case must be made now for nationalist/republican unity in the face of bigotry and outright unionist distain for our culture, language, history and it sometimes seems, our very physical existence. I’m asking you to channel your energies into a positive proactive campaign to elect Nats/Republicans. It may not be the solution to 26+6 corrupt politics but hey (!) it’s the only show in town. I won’t insult your intelligence with the obvious appropriate Bobby Sands quotation.
I’ll finish by saying if any of you are of a mind I’ll be glad of support canvassing for Gemma Dolan Sinn Féin in Fermanagh.
P.S. Billy, check out Paul of Tarsus. He was an interesting man and most definitely a politican ☘
The positivity of Sinn Fein and their supporters has been admirable Hugh.
How you can deal with the arrogance and vehement hatred shown by unionism I do not know. I am not sure I would have the temperament for it, I would more likely swing for someone.
You will have my support though and if there is more I could do I would indeed be of that mind.
P.S. Don’t tell billy Damascus is in Syria what with all the refugees and all. 🙂
4th.tribe will be here soon if thresa may doesnt get a move on with brexit.
Billy, interested in knowing what your definition of the 4th. Tribe is ?
Oh, I think he is referring to the 21st century euplantation of Ulster with european immigrants.
your better going on utube and watching them in some of the towns and cities in england they are enriching with their culture.you get a better idea why the majority voted brexit that way seeing it on film.
Very important to listen to nolan’s audioboom under Irish language debate on slugger from this mornings show.
fiosrach
If Jude is not blogging on it today I will eat my letsgetalongerist hat!
I guess, like Hugh, I’m the thirty two county tribe, albeit, I’m more proud of being Ulster than Irish, however, I know Ulster commences at the Boyne, excludes Cavan west of the Ballyconnell and goes all the way to Rockall, the problem is, most of the politicians in Ireland don’t give a hoot so long as no one else comes to drink from their Parish pump, so leaving us more tribal, get shot of politicians and we may be less tribal.
Same here Mark, one of the disenfranchised 32 with no state of our own and caught between two selfish governments in London and Dublin who together have heaped nothing but shame on a proud people in our own ancient land.
It is the 26 county tribe I have the least respect for, possibly why you feel more proud of being Ulster than Irish today.
There was a genuine disagreement in 1912 About the further governance of the island of Ireland.
It was the Ulster Unionist Council that screwed the dispute to breaking point by setting itself up as the potential Provisional Government of the province of Ulster. And forming a credible army to back the talk up.
The Redmondite United Irish League, sort-of backed the Irish Volunteers, named for the group set up in the 1780s to defend the kingdom from the armed forces of France and Spain.
BUT most definitely not ideas from America and later revolutionary France.
The United Irish were a spin-off from the Volunteers, most of whom didn’t like the radical course France was taking.
The UUC’s 1912 Ulster Volunteer Force brought the gun into modern Irish politics – with a vengeance.
MT disagrees!