It’s important, particularly at election time, to remember that other people see the world differently from you. A couple of examples were available for your earhole on BBC’s ‘Good Morning Ulster’ this morning. The lead news item for discussion was the comment by a member of the Scottish parliament that while some saw the killing of three Scottish soldiers in Belfast in 1971 as the work of terrorists, others would have seen those involved in the killing as freedom fighters. Some five minutes were spent with Noel Thompson talking to a cousin of the dead soldiers who said he felt sickened by such a comment – how could anybody think of such murderers as anything but terrorists?
Straight after this item, there was a commentary on a TV programme last night which described the origins of the SAS. The documentary maker Peter Taylor was asked about the use of the SAS here, and how they’d been involved in Loughall and other less-publicised killings. The general impression left was that they were an effective force in countering the IRA in the 1980s. Oddly, no one whose cousin had been killed by the SAS was on air saying how sick to their stomach they felt at the glamorizing of the SAS.
I’d have sympathy for anyone who loses a loved one through violence, even if they are not immediate family. What baffles me is why the cousin of the Scottish soldiers disputed the point made by the member of the Scottish parliament. Of course there were some people who saw the people who killed the Scottish soldiers as freedom fighters. If there hadn’t been, the IRA wouldn’t have lasted for several decades more. That isn’t to diminish the cousin’s grief; it’s simply to state an obvious fact. The member of the Scottish Parliament got it right – one person’s terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter.
But when it came to the SAS, there was no hint that they might have been guilty of anything beyond heroic military action against the IRA. Yet it is indisputable that there were occasions when the SAS shot dead people whom they could have arrested, and equally indisputable that they shot dead innocent people.
Maybe I didn’t hear correctly, but I didn’t detect any sense of irony in placing these two news items side-by-side: one bunch of terrorists cheek-by-jowl with one group of daring heroes.
No, Virginia. This isn’t an example of fake news.
No surprise that the BBC would be at their oul craic pretending to be impartial and all that. I await the day when they point out that the forcing of partition upon people,against their will, was the root cause of our recent woes and those of the foreign soldiers that died here.
Great story jude
What kind of people befriend someone and lead them to their deaths and claim it as an act of war?
What kind of people can occupy a foreign land with weapons; beat,torture and murder during the day and then expect some ‘r & r’ during their time off?
Perhaps the kind of children, one of them was 17, that are used by Governments and Revolutionaries to do their dirty work and build their political careers.
Dear god we should be demanding the British army ceases with its practice of going into schools and recruiting youngsters then? Maybe when integrated education begins properly here we will see the end of this practice?
You start the petition and I’ll sign it.
“You start the petition and I’ll sign it.”
Leading from behind again then.
Your suggestion, I listen to a different tune
Integrated education?
Chance would be a fine thing.
If only the DUP education minister hadn’t have handed back £47mil earmarked for integrated education.
“Your suggestion, I listen to a different tune”
I never suggested a petition. I rather thought it would be a given that British troops stayed out of irish schools? Must be the Stockholm syndrome thingy?
Is it violins you are listening to?
” Maybe when integrated education begins properly here we will see the end of this practice?”
an end of this practice?? I see it being accelerated and increased under integrated education Wolf Tone. The British Army and State will increase its influence under integrated education. There’s a reason why they repeatedly attacked Catholic schooling during the Troubles. Indeed Fr Denis Faul called integrated education the “Trojan horse” of the British Government. I agree with him.
Children will hardly get a fair and balanced education under the British Government. You don’t need to be Rocket Scientist to work that one out but some Republicans haven’t thought hard enough about what integrated education means. Catholic schooling is already by far the best in this state, so it doesn’t make sense to do away with that anyway. Its not even a topic for debate, Catholic schooling is here to stay.
And before anyone comments about funding, Catholics are taxpayers too and pay towards Catholic schools already.
Your demand then and I care nothing for the British army or any other army.
“Your demand then and I care nothing for the British army or any other army.”
Typical, and yet you claim ‘people need to shout from the rooftops’ etc etc about etc etc? Talk the talk…….but in whispers.lol
Yes indeed Ryan, please don’t confuse my cynicism for an outright call for integrated education. I know exactly what would happen if were to materialise. Ffs the catholic schooling is doing a good job anyway of creating obedient little transnationals.
Btw, I would be all for removing or at else including, all religious teaching in all our schools. Just saying.
I haven’t a clue what you’re talking about but my shouting from the rooftops is about challenging chauvinistic attitudes which dominate our politics and prevalent in this site
“I haven’t a clue…..”
I’ll stop you there. lol
see the ruc giving their first talk today in an (irish) primary school in castlewellan,is there a counter narrative i wonder being taught to the kids on the history of those giving the talk.
Wise move.
aye.the kids learning the ruc history.i agree
“The British Army and State will increase its influence under integrated education. There’s a reason why they repeatedly attacked Catholic schooling during the Troubles.”
The British Army and State repeatedly attacked Catholic schooling during the Troubles? Why hasn’t this come to.light before now. Do explain .
“Children will hardly get a fair and balanced education under the British Government.”
Explain why not. What is unfair and unbalanced about ‘education under the British Government’?
In what way is any education here ‘under the British Government’?
“What kind of people can occupy a foreign land with weapons; beat,torture and murder during the day and then expect some ‘r & r’ during their time off?”
That’s an interesting point WT, if you’d be so gracious as to highlight the beatings, tortures and murders that these soldiers or even their regiment were guilty or even suspected of at that point in March ’71 I’d be most grateful.
On that note, I’ve been perusing CAIN for the number of Catholics deliberately targeted by the British Army up until that point. I think the website must be faulty because it gives very few names of Catholics targeted by the army ( riots notwithstanding).
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/1971.html
So, if the British army weren’t going around killing Catholics then what was the point in killing British soldiers?
Is there any chance that the Provos would perhaps have been trying to raise tensions and provoke a backlash which would validate their fatwah against the British army?
No, you’re right.
It’s impossible that the Provos would have been so reckless with people’s lives, they were the ‘freedom fighters’ after all….
“What kind of people can occupy a foreign land with weapons; beat,torture and murder during the day and then expect some ‘r & r’ during their time off?”
That’s an interesting point WT, if you’d be so gracious as to highlight the beatings, tortures and murders that these soldiers or even their regiment were guilty or even suspected of at that point in March ’71 I’d be most grateful.”
Eh, have you not been paying attention? How would I know what these individuals soldiers did or did not do? Their paymasters refuse to even contemplate any wrongdoing although lord knows why the big secrecy concerning historical inquiries etc. If the British war state refuse to acknowledge their terrorists did any wrong in uniform what chance they’ll admit they did anything out of uniform, you know what I mean wink wink? Perhaps you can ask people you know?
“Eh, have you not been paying attention? How would I know what these individuals soldiers did or did not do? ”
You spoke in no uncertain terms about ‘beat, torture and murder’ and no it appears that you indeed uncertain.
NOTE: I am talking about March 1971 and the years prior to it.
If you befriended more people, Dominic, you would have more votes and more MLAs and be in a position to ensure this doesn’t happen again.
I’m not a politician or a member of a political party and what has that got to do with the question I asked?
We are still ruled by an imperial power so, any surprises that they control the narrative ?
This reminds me of when the IRA ended their military campaign, the media were awash with reactions/interviews from victims of IRA violence and their families. Also, when the British army declared an end to their ‘Operation Banner’ here in 2007, guess who the media went to looking for their reaction and thoughts? Not victims of British Army violence and their families, but IRA victims and their families of course.
Yes indeed Alex. Sadly some Irish people still fall for this deliberate propaganda, so much so that they in turn do the propagandising on behalf of the British state occupier. A kind of Stockholm syndrome were they take their lead from British newspapers and media and then confidently preach as if they know everything concerning the troubles. The truth is too scary for them to face up to; easier and indeed safer and more rewarding to pick on the underdog.
Fifty years ago some people did view the world a little differently in some quarters. There were the recruiters who glamourised life in the Army for young impressionable men and women , living in no-hope joblessness in sink-estates .They ran adverts in the media , …the press and television …even in children’s comics, much as the clergy might trawl for budding priests at schools.There was also a sticker and posters doing the rounds as a sense of balance, with the slogan which read….”Join the Army; travel to exotic distant lands ; meet exciting unusual people and kill them.”
seen one of them posters yrs ago……..
join the army and see the world..
somebody had scrawled below it..aye,the next world.lol
There is no equivalence between the IRA campaign and the state activities.
Of course many crimes were committed by the state forces and we need the full truth about all of that.
But the IRA campaign was inherently wrong and pointless in my view.
Others will disagree of course as is their right, but the majority of people here have never supported that view as borne out in elections through the years.
“There is no equivalence between the IRA campaign and the state activities”
Why is there no equivalence Gio? I agree with you there but I doubt we agree on the way there’s no equivalence lol The truth is the IRA was fighting a foreign presence in the North Eastern corner of our country.
If it was your relative that was killed by the State Gio, I doubt you’d hold the same beliefs you have now. As I had to tell MT many times, the State hasn’t a monopoly on morality and on killing people. Of course the IRA killed people but the truth is the British Army deliberately escalated the Troubles here, Ballymurphy Massacre and Bloody Sunday were no accidents.
“But the IRA campaign was inherently wrong and pointless in my view”
I disagree.
“but the majority of people here have never supported that view as borne out in elections through the years”
Sinn Fein had elected councillors and MP’s throughout the Troubles. The Hunger Strikers were elected to the Dail and Westminster. All supported armed conflict against the British State.
Ryan
If it was my relative I would feel exactly as I feel now. I would want the truth about what happened and justice, preferably a long sentence for those that did it.
The IRA campaign had no legitimacy and was pointless given that it had no chance of achieving its main aim.
But you are entitled to disagree as indeed some people do.
Thankfully the majority do not agree with you.
Shure them rebels that stabbed our boys in the back in 1916 had no legitimacy and no chance of success. Anybody at any time has a legitimate right to rid their country of a foreign government.
fiosrach
There was no chance of success in the recent campaign as was proved by its failure.
Who’s to say the provo campaign was a failure? As far as I know they were happy with what they achieved.
fiosrach
Well as long as the guys with the guns are happy that is all that matters.
“Why is there no equivalence Gio”
Because the PIRA had no right to exist or do what it did, and no legitimacy, whereas a state Army is a legitimate body.
“The truth is the IRA was fighting a foreign presence in the North Eastern corner of our country.”
That’s not the truth. In fact, it’s untrue. Northern Ireland was, and still is, part of the UK.
“If it was your relative that was killed by the State Gio, I doubt you’d hold the same beliefs you have now. As I had to tell MT many times, the State hasn’t a monopoly on morality and on killing people. Of course the IRA killed people but the truth is the British Army deliberately escalated the Troubles here, Ballymurphy Massacre and Bloody Sunday were no accidents.”
The fact that members of the Army murdered some people doesnt make it equvalent to PIRA.
“Sinn Fein had elected councillors and MP’s throughout the Troubles. The Hunger Strikers were elected to the Dail and Westminster. All supported armed conflict against the British State.”
You do realise these councillors etc only represented about 10% of voters? That’s not a.majority.
Also they didn’t have councillors throughout the Troubles. They had none before about 1981.
Jude, the levels of biased reporting on BBC Radio Good Morning Ulster is mindboggling!
On a different story the female news announcer read a headline this morning to effect of something like “ It has been claimed that speaker of the House John Berkow may have acted outside his powers when he said he would not like President Trump to address the house”.
The announcer went on to say that a Conservative Member of Parliament made the claim but didn’t even give listeners the pleasure of knowing who the enlightened character was and if it had any merit!
The item finished with a recorded interview with Labour MP Stella Creasey.
Would not the least one could expect from a journalistic program is that they identify the source of their headline claim?
I f anyone requires an object lesson in “Pax Britannica” you could do worse than read “Britain’s Gulag” by Caroline Elkins, about Britain’s actions in Kenya from the late 1940s to 1960. Massacre, summary justice, rape, collective detention and punishment good old Britain and her boys did it all and none of them faced a single charge or court.
As Brendan Behan said the terrorist is the one with the small bomb.
“As Brendan Behan said the terrorist is the one with the small bomb.”
And what size was the biggest bomb ever used by British Army in NI?
If someone says ‘Softly,softly, catch a monkey’ , do you say ‘ ah but I never mentioned monkeys ‘. The Miami Showband was a British Army bomb?
Would that have been the biggest bomb the British Army ever used in NI then fiosrach?
“And what size was the biggest bomb ever used by British Army in NI?”
The Dublin/Monaghan bomb/s were a right size. McGurks pub bomb was substantial. But sure how long is a piece of string. Please pay attention as you won’t learn everything from reading what’s on CAIN.
Gerry Adams has not been proven to be an IRA commander and the British army has not been found responsible for the Dubiln/Monaghan bombs, even Anne Cadwallader stops short of actually accusing them (rather she points to evidence that it was an allows the reader to make up his or her mind).
Going around telling each other what ‘the truth’ is and listening only to what you want to hear is why we have people like Willie Frazer.
Its just another way of legitimizing State violence. The SAS were also involved in collusion with Unionist paramilitaries, the UVF/UDA would not have been able to carry out even half of the murders they did if it weren’t for help from the British State. The myth that the British State is “only” behind 10% of killings of here is just that: a myth. The truth is they are behind at the very least 30% or more in my opinion. Not counting the times they let IRA attacks occur in order to protect agents. The daughter of an RUC officer spoke of this when she found out her fathers killing could have been prevented way in advance but the agent who was involved in his killing was given the go ahead.
Ultimately this also shows a hierarchy of victims. I remember reading in a book that the hierarchy here works like this:
Most important victims at the top, least important at the bottom: (The Irish Government is also guilty of this too)
1. English civilians killed by Republicans
2. British soldiers killed by Republicans
3. Protestant civilians killed by Republicans
4. RUC/UDR members killed by Republicans
5. Catholic civilians killed by Republicans
6. Catholic civilians killed by Unionists
7.Catholic civilians killed by British State/Army (“They didn’t get it for nothing”)
8. Unionist paramilitaries killed by Republicans
9. Republican paramilitaries killed by Unionists
10. Relatives of Republicans seeking Justice for loved ones
Susan McKay once said such a hierarchy was deliberately pursued by the British state, media and Unionists.
“Its just another way of legitimizing State violence. ”
State violence, when employed appropriately, is legitimate. That’s the whole point of having state forces in a civilised society: they are accountable, restricted by law, and there to protect society. Only when they stray beyond that, as happened on occasion in NI, does state violence become illegitimate.
How come this ‘cousin’ has been silent for the past 46 years since the shooting.
Does he not realise that his soldier relative, at the age of 17, was given a gun by the army and trained how to shoot to kill?
Had this soldier boy come home to Scotland and told how brave he had been, and the number of people, innocent or otherwise, he had shot, injured and killed, would this conscientious cousin have been so concerned?
Somehow I don’t think so.
Sherdy
This 17 year old was sent to a place where no British soldiers had been deliberately targeted (except perhaps by loyalists, dunno, can’t be arsed checking Cain) and which was culturally very similar to the west of Scotland.
It was perhaps seen as more of a cushy number (hence allowing SEVENTEEN year olds to serve there) albeit draining.
It’s highly unlikely he saw himself as a member of an occupying force and if he was like most of the (proper) British Army Scottish soldiers I’ve known from that era he probably had hoped the whole thing would blow over soon and we can all get back to getting drunk, eating chips and fighting outside pubs.
I hold the belief that the Provos really really wanted a ‘war’ and needed a suitable backlash and killing easy meat like this was a great way to get it (from a military point of view, dead Protestants = dead Paddies, not so important).
This is why so many unionists think that the Provos’ campaign was a cynical waste of time: defend Catholic areas? Sure. Necessary. Honourable.
Going on the offensive and opening sectarian sluice gates? Strategically stupid and murderous.
“How come this ‘cousin’ has been silent for the past 46 years since the shooting.”
Because nobody before had suggested that his cousin was ‘doing bad’ or that his murderers were equivalent to soldiers.
“Does he not realise that his soldier relative, at the age of 17, was given a gun by the army and trained how to shoot to kill?:
Of course he does.
“Had this soldier boy come home to Scotland and told how brave he had been, and the number of people, innocent or otherwise, he had shot, injured and killed, would this conscientious cousin have been so concerned?”
Obviously not because that would mean he hadn’t been murdered.
A reading of the interview with an incandescent cousin of two of the three Scottish soldiers, Esteemed Blogmeister, rang a distant bell.
A bell which seemed to ding a ling the name of the late Liam Mac Gabhann, one of the founding editors of the Sunday World in Dublin , who travelled over to Scotland to interview the relatives of the Scottish soldiers.
He did not travel on the Peace Train as it had yet not been deemed sufficiently railworthy at this moment in time, going forward. But whose pioneering trip might well have given the green flag and the long whistle for it to shunt up country from (gasp) Connolly Station.
One recalls the standing ovation which this brave, imaginative, courageous, empathetic, thoughtful, humane, ground-breaking, tradition-defying journey into the journalistic unknown received in the Free Southern Stateen.
Try strenuously as one might, however, one cannot recall even the slightest of nods in the direction of the old military adage of ‘getting one’s retaliation in first’ whether the theatre of war be in the green hills of Tyrol or Tyrone itself for the tartan Scottish laddie who wanders far away and who even soldiers not so far away.
It also recalled a movie popular in the motion picture houses of the Free Southern Stateen during the Fabulous Fifites:
-The Fighting Sullivans.
This focused on the real-live five Sullivan brothers from Dogpatch, Iowa who all found a watery grave in the Pacific Theatre when the USS Juneau (no, Joxer, the officer in charge was not Captain Boyle) was torpedoed on November 13, 1942 by a submarine which was in the service of – no, Joxer, not the Paycock Throne – the Chrysanthemum Throne.
This incident led to the Navy of Uncle Sam tightening its regulations regarding the enlisting of more than one sibling on the same vessel at the identical time, especially if their surname was Sullivan. It was thought this particular moniker might prompt them more than most to, erm, keep an eye out for each other.
This submission is reported to have been called in colloquial terms: ‘The Safety of Sibs from Subs’.
It is not reported if a similar regulation was introduced by the Badges of Her Madge’s in the aftermath of the triple slaying on the White Brae, Squire’s Hill off the Ligoniel Road in North Belfast on March 10, 1971.
One wonders if today’s story involving the name change (not involving a bottle of champers ) of the good ship ‘Baníon Uladh’to ‘Queen of Ulster’ would put a damper on any such regulation.
On account, mebbe, that the BA does not, old chap, travel on the BU ?
Perkin
I have no idea what you look like but I have the impression that you have a skip in your step, a brolly to hand at all times and that the sun comes out every time you leave your house (thereby making the brolly redundant but it’s so fashionable that no one notices).
I think you even have your own theme music, a bit like this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDFjM4GqdsA
God, alas, had a genuine off-day, Am Ghobsmacht, a chara, the day he took a swing at constructing the physog of The Perkin.
Instead of returning to the tee and dropping a shot, as is rigidly laid down in the Royal and Ancient rule book, the Big G continued on His almighty way down the fairways of the fair of face, as if His wayward shot at the latest Warbeckian dial had not been noticed.
It was, of course, and nowhere with more misgivings than in Warbeck Towers. Since the day one was born, all wall mirrors have been banned in that ancient pile. Or, at the very least, turned back to front, in deference to the incurable peek-sneakers of The Perkin’s family, including immediate, extended and estranged.
Indeed, during one’s boyhood endless, futile courses of Boytox failed to effect any improvement; if anything, they made matters worse, if that was pussible.
That is why one never ventures forth until after dark and on moonless nights only ; during daylight hours one’s inner Elephant Boy is never allowed to forget by a derisive outside world.
Beir bua.
PS Thanks for the soundtrack: just right to read The Beastly Beatitudes of Balthazar B, by.
“I’d have sympathy for anyone who loses a loved one through violence, even if they are not immediate family. What baffles me is why the cousin of the Scottish soldiers disputed the point made by the member of the Scottish parliament. Of course there were some people who saw the people who killed the Scottish soldiers as freedom fighters. If there hadn’t been, the IRA wouldn’t have lasted for several decades more. That isn’t to diminish the cousin’s grief; it’s simply to state an obvious fact. The member of the Scottish Parliament got it right – one person’s terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter.”
I wonder, Jude, were you unaware of the context of the MSP’s comments when you posted this or did you deliberately choose to comment on them as stand-alone comments?
The reason the comments are offensive is because they formed part of the reasoning for the MSP”s refusal to support a campaign for justice for the three Scottish soldiers murdered by the PIRA in Belfast in 1971. The MSP said that he would not support soldiers who ‘did wrong’ and then threw put the old cliché about terrorists and freedom fighters. It is quite clear that the MSP was drawing an equivalence between the soldiers and the PIRA and even implying that the soldiers were doing wrong.
“is quite clear that the MSP was drawing an equivalence between the soldiers and the PIRA and even implying that the soldiers were doing wrong.”
Well being part of an occupying foreign force is wrong so the MSP has a point.
“Well being part of an occupying foreign force is wrong so the MSP has a point.:
The soldier in question wasn’t part of such a force.