I heard a spokeswoman from the SDLP, Nicola Mallon, on radio saying that we do not need a border poll now or in the foreseeable future. It would only polarise the community further she argued. Daithi MacKay, the former Sinn Fein MLA, made an interesting point about the possibility of having a border poll that would not sound so threatening to unionists. It would contain an option in a referendum for some kind of ‘half way house’ which would involve leaving the Assembly intact but strengthening the ties with Dublin and ensuring that the six counties had special status within the EU. This he suggested might satisfy most republicans and not be seen as threatening to unionists. I think that is the gist of what he said and I think it is a good proposal. A man from the Alliance party argued that there should never be a border poll because the border was not the issue. The BBC man Mr Crawley asked: ‘So Alliance is a unionist party?’ The man from Alliance said, ‘no they were not’. So, if they are not unionist and not nationalist, in relation to a border poll, what are they? How relevant are these people and their parties now? Of course they represent the nice ‘non-sectarian’ middle class for whom the border is not nor ever was an issue but they are becoming more and more irrelevant. For most people on the nationalist side in the north and especially those living on the border the issue of partition is very much the issue especially with Brexit coming down the tracks.
I think there will now have to be a Border poll given the results of this election when nationalists/republicans have 40 seats and the two main unionist parties have 37 seats. I believe that a border poll is a logical consequence of this election.
It should not be a seen as anyway threatening to unionists since it is what they signed up for in the 1998 Agreement. It has come around, perhaps, a little quicker than they expected but it is here and it is now time to prepare for the inevitable referendum. It should be seen as part of the working out of the 1998 Agreement. It would be great if the referendum on the border here and on Scottish independence could be held on the same day. That would be a very good day for democracy.
A border poll is a logical possible consequence of the election result but not, logically, a necessary consequence.
The question should now be what are we prepared to offer Unionists in order to join a United Ireland?
Well said hoboroad
How about, the 1916 proclamation for starters?
If at the end of this 3 weeks of “negotiations” there isn’t a complete implementation of the Good Friday Agreement and a bill of rights, no sane nationalist will want to remain in a UK whose Government in living memory supported death squads that actively targeted and murdered them indiscriminately & whose previous hits include the Penal laws. I think that’s when the chorus on the referendum should gain volume.
“The BBC man Mr Crawley asked: ‘So Alliance is a unionist party?’ The man from Alliance said, ‘no they were not’. So, if they are not unionist and not nationalist, in relation to a border poll, what are they? How relevant are these people and their parties now? Of course they represent the nice ‘non-sectarian’ middle class for whom the border is not nor ever was an issue but they are becoming more and more irrelevant. ”
So a party that has increased its representation is becoming more and more irrelevant? That’s an odd deduction.
“I think there will now have to be a Border poll given the results of this election when nationalists/republicans have 40 seats and the two main unionist parties have 37 seats. I believe that a border poll is a logical consequence of this election.”
Why?
“It should not be a seen as anyway threatening to unionists since it is what they signed up for in the 1998 Agreement.”
There’s been provision for a border poll since 1973.
There was a border poll in 1973 Nationalists boycotted it. What would happen if Unionists boycotted one in the near future?
“There was a border poll in 1973 Nationalists boycotted it. What would happen if Unionists boycotted one in the near future?”
Nationalists would win.
We would all win MT
I see it asked above what we ( presumably northern united irelanders ) are prepared to offer unionists to enter into a United Ireland, surely the question when we get round to it is – what do we all offer to the idea of a reunified new Ireland ? I feel no special onus to offer anyone anything only the possibility of a much better framework upon which bread and butter issues are dealt with and the constitutional question resolved. Neither of those things will happen unless there is full and equal participation from all. A united Ireland where one part of the United people are constantly watching the status of some special agreement reached with them is bound to introduce the possibility of instability from day one. Politically what is now North of Ireland unionism has a potentially very powerful place in post unification Irish politics, a potential merger or alliance with politically similiar travellers such as FG would put them in a position that they will be able to defend their own rights within the eventual agreed framework of a new nation – starting the debate first is more important than what anybody should be offered as a sweetner.
“A united Ireland where one part of the United people are constantly watching the status of some special agreement reached with them is bound to introduce the possibility of instability from day one.”
But such a special agreement and instability in Northern Ireland is OK?
“Politically what is now North of Ireland unionism has a potentially very powerful place in post unification Irish politics, a potential merger or alliance with politically similiar travellers such as FG would put them in a position that they will be able to defend their own rights within the eventual agreed framework of a new nation”
To what rights do you refer?
That is a fair comment Barry. From what I have gathered from our unionist contributors on this site however, is that to even engage in talks about a united Ireland would be seen as a defeat.
The first thing we would need to offer therefore is reassurance that far from being a defeat for unionism what we would be tying to achieve is a better deal for all of us.
Other examples of what could be offered to encourage this debate beginning as believe me, it is not only the unionist community who need to be convinced. Before we get to a border poll, there will be a rude awakening for some far left socialists who live under the delusion that big business will be nationalised and Ireland will move to be some form of Marxist state. Eamon McCann has learned that it wont and I imagine Sinn Fein already know damn well that it wont but are dealing with one problem at a time.
Then there is their british heritage. If they push us to the wire and make it an uphill struggle all the way, you will have people like myself who will want every trace of that heritage removed. By engaging in talks as equals and participating in building a new agreed Ireland, I would have no problem in offering legislation for key monuments and other memorials important to the preservation of that heritage to be protected in law.
We could have an Irish language act and a british heritage act in the mean time which should cover things important to unionists such as such heritage protection as well as11th night bonfires and orange marches for example. Come to think of them, I have not heard much from the orange order in recent months.
Perhaps we should listen to what unionists might need, to help them feel reassured enough to engage positively in such a debate.
If it is genuine it will be unlikely to be a problem, if they aren’t, then relations between both islands is likely to sour as a result.
After this election, I think it is at least worth exploring whether we can do things the easy way for a change.
So here’s an entirely different question, one that I don’t know the answer to, but there may be those who might.
If, given Brexit and the Border, and let’s face it, the way in which the people of the RoI have, over the years, been treated shabbily by the EU, and the way in which their sovereignty has been diluted (yes, yes, I know, the roads are better), but if the people of the RoI were offered a three-way choice between, an open border and a United Ireland in the EU, an open border and a United Ireland in a Federal UK (no oaths to Royalty and no loss of Dáil Éireann, but a greater sovereignty than they have now), or a closed border a UK Northern Ireland and an EU RoI – does anyone have any idea what they would choose, or how popular any given option might be?
Would Unionists then be better off going into direct talks with Dublin with no preconditions and everything on the table?
“Would Unionists then be better off going into direct talks with Dublin with no preconditions and everything on the table?”
Talks about what?
Talks about how they plan to share this Island with others of differing opinions
“Talks about how they plan to share this Island with others of differing opinions”
You’re somewhat behind the times. Those talks took place twenty years ago.
The Good Friday Agreement or Belfast Agreement is almost 20 years old. To Unionists who supported it was a settlement. To Nationalists it was a stepping stone to a better future.
PF, there is more to EU membership than money and better roads. I count myself as a proud European first and then a proud Irishman. I love being officially connected with my Spanish, French and Italian cousins. That is a relationship myself and most of my fellow Irishmen want to foster rather than dilute.
Freddie
“PF, there is more to EU membership than money and better roads.”
Indeed, and I did not deny that; what I did do, however, was to draw to our attention to (what shall we say?) the flexible approach to democracy in the EU, and its assertion of power into nation states.
“I count myself as a proud European first and then a proud Irishman.”
And that in itself is interesting. I wonder what the Irish Republicans posting here think of that idea. I hadn’t thought of Irish Republicanism as putting Irish second. But it does demonstrate the contradiction of SF’s current stance.
“I love being officially connected with my Spanish, French and Italian cousins. That is a relationship myself and most of my fellow Irishmen want to foster rather than dilute.”
But that’s not what I suggested was being diluted. I suggested that Irish sovereignty was being diluted by its membership of the EU. A happy, cooperative and cultural relationship with one’s “Spanish, French and Italian cousins” is more than possible without giving up one’s sovereignty.
Am I to assume that your view of Irishness has more to do with unique elements of history and culture than it has to do with self-governance and the nation state?
And, to return to my initial question, if you are “a proud European first”, does that mean that you would be happy to sacrifice part of Ireland i.e. Northern Ireland, if through the greater part of Ireland i.e. the RoI, you could preserve your European identity? Because, let’s face it, if your Irish identity comes second and is primarily cultural, then a United Ireland adds nothing to your preferred European identity.
Something else, related indirectly.
And I hope they read your website, Jude, and I hope they read this – but those Unionist commentators who have been wittering on for the past number of years about how safe the Union is, where, exactly, did they go over the weekend?
It’s amazing how often people were able to cry, “Safe, safe,” as if part of a fairytale called, “The Little Boy Who Cried, ‘Safe’.”
Peter, instead of thinking about how safe the union is, perhaps you should be more concerned about how safe our economy is, how safe our border will be, how safe our jobs are, show safe our children’s futures will be.
What if the union is no longer in our best interests?
What would the merit be in having the union safe be?
Jessica, I was merely pointing out that those who have spent the last years crying, “Safe,” appear to have gone quiet.
Indeed, one local newspaper has suggested a Border Poll might be worth a punt if settled the question for the next twenty years or so. And in another article the plan seems to be (1) Direct Rule or (2) Collapse the Assembly (assuming it can be got up and running again. The DUP seem to be shaping up for a, there won’t be a United Ireland any time soon, so let’s make Stormont work again, plan, and the UUP haven’t got a leader never mind a plan.
It’s short termism over and over again, and that’s things at their best.
But absolutely no one appears to be making a case for the Union. Now, I know you don’t agree with me, but wouldn’t you have thought that a Unionist might be able to articulate some reason for the Union which might persuade some as to its benefits.
And no one, but no one in the political Unionist camp seems to be able to think beyond Northern Ireland. And the goal appears to be the preservation of Northern Ireland rather than the preservation or even enlargement of the Union.
What if we had an Irish Unionist Party? What if we promoted the benefits of cooperation with Scotland and Wales? Ireland is going to have to have strong links with something – Northern Ireland needs more than Stormont, even the RoI needs more than the Dail.
But ‘safe’, ‘safe’, ‘safe’, is all we get, and all as the ground (from small-minded-NorthernIreland-only-Unionism) crumbles beneath their feet.
It’s exasperating beyond belief.
And your points about a safe economy, a safe border, safer jobs and a safe future, will, in my opinion, improve and strengthen when Ireland works together within itself and with its family (and I mean that quite literally), its friends and its immediate neighbours, with whom it has already many, many established links.
If all unionism have to campaign on is anti Sinn Fein rhetoric over a past conflict, and it is in the past. The IRA will not be coming back ever.
Then you have to realise that Sinn Fein in 2017 consists of young well educated and popular members of the nationalist community and I hope in the near future that also will change and members from the protestant community will want to be a part of Sinn Fein.
And yes, there is merit in helping to repair the damage england is doing to the union between the nations of these islands.
But that is up to england and who is england engaging with to do that?
Post brexit, even Scotland are not being afforded an equal status in the brexit negotiations. England is still deciding what is best for the UK and listening to views in forums while the real business is done behind closed doors is not a union of equals.
It suggests england has already decided to go the route of a federal union and allow Scotland a degree of independence which will include real ownership of sterling with bank of Scotland becoming the equal of the bank of england.
Would england offer the same to Ireland.
The answer to that may tell you whether your desire for a stronger UK with Ireland in it is even possible.
And northern Ireland is an irrelevant part of the UK. Having a foothold in Ireland to england is simply about leverage should the paddies get out of line in Dublin. It is not a valued part of the UK.
There is a growing desire for unification in the south and even the scare tactic of the 9 billion annual cost is no longer putting people off though that figure is a nonsense.
Ireland is going to be united because a majority of Irish people want it to be and we are a democratic nation.
I am sure there is some form of formal link with britain that could be agreed which would guarantee unionist heritage while allowing our communities to merge into one which is the message I get from this election.
Assuming the UK is going to go federal and Ireland is going to be united, what would give you peace of mind Peter?
There is a lot of sense in what you say PF. A united Ireland could act as a bridge between a post-Brexit Britain (which could potentially include an independent Scotland) and the EU. Not sure what sort of diplomatic fudges would be required, mind you. Sadly, I think Britain under the Tories seems to be adopting a slash and burn approach to diplomacy. The Little Englanders have the wheel and look to be driving the whole thing over a cliff as their European neighbours look on aghast.
Ireland (north and south) aren’t even so much as an afterthough to the Tories at the moment. It’s a very peculiar position to have adopted. A close result in an advisory referendum does not warrant such an extreme response. I fear things will get worse before they get better. Brexit at any cost could potentially change relationships on these islands forever. Adopting an NI-centric view of Europe at the moment seems an act of immense folly.
If they don’t change direction, it will lead to a trade war with the EU and Ireland will have to choose sides
I don’t see how we cannot choose the EU at present. England have not respected their current partners within GB and if Ireland puts such trust in England after our history we deserve all we get if it blows up in our faces.
https://twitter.com/ornayoung/status/837956116797587456/photo/1
For MT, i would have thought you would see the link, no its not ok, if you have instability here why in a new country would you wish to repeat the mistake. On the issue of right those would be the rights guaranteed under a new agreed constitution, fairly straight forward that one.
“For MT, i would have thought you would see the link, no its not ok, if you have instability here why in a new country would you wish to repeat the mistake.”
What link?
“On the issue of right those would be the rights guaranteed under a new agreed constitution, fairly straight forward that one.”
What rights?
MT, do you ever get tired of playing games ? The link I mentioned is obvious, if you choose not to see it that’s your own problem – The rights are the same basic human rights all people should receive, their exact form would have to be agreed upon as part of a process towards a new agreed constitution, if the words and the effort needed to understand them are to difficult for you I can send you some pictures that may help you.
“MT, do you ever get tired of playing games ? The link I mentioned is obvious, if you choose not to see it that’s your own problem”
What link? If you don’t quote the text you’re responding to I don’t know what it is you’re referring to.
” – The rights are the same basic human rights all people should receive, their exact form would have to be agreed upon as part of a process towards a new agreed constitution, if the words and the effort needed to understand them are to difficult for you I can send you some pictures that may help you.”
So you’re saying nationalists should offer unionists human rights in a united Ireland?
I should imagine unionists would expect that as standard.