I see that Liam Neeson, the actor from Ballymena, who lives in New York, has thrown his weight behind a new campaign to encourage more schools in norn Ireland to become integrated. Not sure if he means that the existing schools become integrated or that there should be more Integrated schools. Already in the north there are 62 Integrated schools, 22 Irish medium, 530 Catholic schools and 649 Controlled Schools. These figures show that there is a strong demand by parents for the faith based schools of their choice. The Integrated Schools cater for the parents who prefer this form of education for their children. I wholeheartedly accept the right of parents to send their children to any school of their choice. I do not accept Mr Neeson’s idea that Integrated schools have more to offer in the north of Ireland in resolving the political and community divisions here.
I do not know what school Mr Neeson attended but he does not seem to appreciate the importance of Catholic schools in the life of the Church. He does not recognise their role in helping to educate children in the Catholic faith and their contribution in bringing about a more integrated society at home and a more peaceful caring and integrated world. He does not seem to appreciate that Catholic parents the world over opt to send their children to Catholic schools to avail of Catholic education and to experience the Catholic ethos of respect, tolerance and compassion.
Catholic schools offer Catholics and others who so desire, the help and support they need to be kind and caring people in a kind and caring environment. They help young people to grow in maturity and tolerance. They help children to celebrate with joy the key moments in their lives and to join with others in the celebration of the Eucharist.
In recent years, a dark side of the Church has been revealed when a number of priests and religious were guilty of the crime of abusing children. We were once again reminded of this recently with the report about Children in Care homes run by Religious orders. Those Bishops and superiors who ignored or covered up were also guilty. This has caused great distress and pain for the abused and their loved ones. It is a blot on the history of the Church and sadly it is not confined to the Catholic Church. Procedures are now in place to ensure that this never happens again in the Church or in any institution run by the Church.
There are some who would want to minimise the importance of Catholic schools and their positive influence in society. There are some who condemn Catholic schools as sectarian. There is no evidence for this charge. There is a mistaken notion that if there were no denominational schools young people in the north would grow up with a better understanding of one another. There have always been and there are nowadays many opportunities for young people to mix and there is much inter-schools activity.
It must be recognised that ours is a political problem that needs a political solution – a solution that accepts the reality of a history of colonial domination. Until that is dealt with by the colonial power then integrating children in schools will not make much difference.
Pope Francis has shown the world that the Catholic way of life, inspired by the Scriptures and by the witness of countless people has much to say to the world today about peace and justice. It has much to offer young people to help them in their lives and in their relationships. Pope Francis likes to show the importance of being kind, respectful, loving and forgiving. These human qualities are the necessary foundation for any civilised society. Catholic schools, at their best, will always promote these values both in the school and in society.
Somebody over on sluggerotoole suggested that ALL schools in NI be Catholic schools.
After a bit of pondering I have to say I would support this;
It would save tens of millions of pounds (maybe more?)
Kids would finally be integrating
Kids would be singing from the same hymn sheet for things like history class
It would presumably elevate the levels of education in some of the under performing state comprehensives
It would be funny to watch fleggers go into another meltdown and watch beleaguered priests trying to work with the children of loyalists (the scene from Father Ted springs to mind: “Do you know how to make a bow and arrow? Not to worry, you’ll pick it up…”)
Simply put, just add a few opt outs for certain religious aspects that are incompatible with Protestantism and drop the requirement that sees invariably excludes Protestant teachers from teaching in Catholic schools.
And before ye all go nuts, apparently the Catholic school in Bangor has a large number of Protestant pupils(if not a majority) and how weak would your political and religious convictions have to be in order to be ‘turned’ by such an environment (I am surrounded by Catholic nik-naks and ‘tat’ and at worst I find it amusing, I honestly expect the missus to bring home a ‘Holy Mother of the 13th hole’ someday.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lo5dwzZToo (5:25)
Although I’m agnostic this option does tick all my boxes e.g. mixing of the two main communities and reducing the duplication of services and saving millions.
Westminster should adopt this policy to punish the DUP in the event of a return to direct rule (if the DUP became known as the party that destroyed Protestant schools in Ulster they’d be ruined as a party forever. Buahahahahaha!!!!)
“the requirement that sees invariably excludes Protestant teachers from teaching in Catholic schools.” – Mmm. Somebody’s been breaking the rules, then. I can think of several cases where Protestants were teaching in Catholic schools….
Well, I have to admit ignorance Dr C. One minute I’m told about the rules that state all teachers must have some sort of qualification and then I’m told about the exceptions.
Anyhoo, what about the rest of the points?
Here here Joe!
As a Catholic man, I’d like to affirm your general theme about the benefits of Catholic schools. I received an education at my Catholic Primary & Secondary School, and very grateful to all those teachers including the religious brothers and Sisters who taught me along the way.
My eldest child has just begun her formal education this school year. She attends a Catholic Primary school and I’m constantly reminded of my own schooling when she comes home and tells us her stories, especially when we say our prayers at night and she recites the ones she’s learned at school that day; I’m almost thrown into a time machine and can smell the classroom as my memory kicks in to join her in the same prayer i was also taught at that age.
In a bruised and hurting world it is good to know that some things remain constant. Our Catholic faith, taught faithfully!
St. John Baptist de La Salle
Pray for us.
Fortunately for most of us the damage done by enforced religious education is not lasting and we can grow out of it.
That still does not excuse inflicting it on children.
However the greater damage is done through segregation which would be rightly condemned here if it was being done on any other basis such as skin colour for example.
Could there possibly be any connection between keeping our children apart until they are young adults and the fear and hatred endemic in our society? I wonder!
The parents who send their children to integrated schools are not a homogenous bunch. Some do it for convenience, some because it is intellectually suitable and some as a point of principle. But the hidden agenda is, indeed, integration but it is integration into the British state. I went through the Catholic system and felt reasonable comfortable. The main reason being that the staff (in general) and the pupils (in general) were nationalist. Religion was present but it was never pushed and non-Catholic teachers were employed even in high positions. The choice is not a Catholic school or a Protestant school but a British school or an Irish school.
“The parents who send their children to integrated schools are not a homogenous bunch. Some do it for convenience, some because it is intellectually suitable and some as a point of principle. But the hidden agenda is, indeed, integration but it is integration into the British state.”
How does one become.integrated into the British state? What does this mean and how do integrated schools achieve it?
“I went through the Catholic system and felt reasonable comfortable. The main reason being that the staff (in general) and the pupils (in general) were nationalist. Religion was present but it was never pushed and non-Catholic teachers were employed even in high positions. The choice is not a Catholic school or a Protestant school but a British school or an Irish school.”
This contradicts what Fr McVeigh argues.
It seems there is a political angle to RC schools..That is very concerning
Is there a political angle to ‘state’ schools? That is even more concerning. Constant exposure to British values and sniffiness about the natives like dripping water will wear away a stone. The presence of British nicknacks and tat in state schools is very alarming.
“Is there a political angle to ‘state’ schools?”
No.
“That is even more concerning. Constant exposure to British values and sniffiness about the natives like dripping water will wear away a stone. The presence of British nicknacks and tat in state schools is very alarming.”
What are ‘British values’, how do they differ from other values, and in what way are children exposed to them at school?
fiosrach
Say for the sake of argument that it is a choice between a British school and an Irish school.
If that problem was solved would you be in favour of integrated education here or do you prefer to see children kept apart in principle?
I would prefer that religion was just taught as decent behaviour in all schools but at present, we have to choose between a faith orientated nationalist school system and a faith orientated British state school system. I exempt the Gaelscoileanna etc which I think are classed as a state school at least as non denominational. When the English government removes its malign influence from Ireland the problem will disappear.
fiosrach
So do you prefer to see children kept apart in principle?
No no! Let all the schools be nationalist and Irish. No more separation.
Do you seriously think that integrated education would solve all the problems here. The problem is the apartheid state bequeathed to us by our colonial masters. When you have separate societies, younwill end up with us and them.
fiosrach
I never said it would solve all our problems.
Perhaps it might help though.
At least you agree there should be no separation.
I don’t know why education should be nationalist though?
Well, some of us take sides. It’s sore on the old ass sitting on the fence all the time.
fiosrach
Educating children through the ideas of one side in particular is just indoctrination.
Spot on!
fiosrach
Not much I can say to that.
At least you are honest about it I suppose.
Now! Which side do I pick?
Children are kept apart because people live in religiously segregated ghettoes. This was because the rules for suffrage were such that it suited Unionists to gerrymander by means of housing allocation.
I was educated by christian brothers , catholic lay teachers and for a short time priests I am now 68 years old , and in my twilight years ,years of reflection , but as I look back at my early life I can never remember any thing but kindness help and understanding from my teachers , they taught me tolerance, and forgiveness , respect for others and their faith, be that Muslim, reformed faith, or Judaism, especially the small difference between the catholic faith and the Anglican /church of Ireland faith,
Even tho Bigotry and sectarianism promoted by the orange order and the unionist political class was all around us it was never allowed into our home or our lives,
So lets be clear about this Catholic faith schools are not the problem, the problem is the absolute hate of catholic people and religion, in the north as expressed by that other Fermanagh Unionist leader Brookbrough who famously said “not a catholic about the place”
“I was educated by christian brothers , catholic lay teachers and for a short time priests I am now 68 years old , and in my twilight years ,years of reflection , but as I look back at my early life I can never remember any thing but kindness help and understanding from my teachers , they taught me tolerance, and forgiveness , respect for others and their faith, be that Muslim, reformed faith, or Judaism, especially the small difference between the catholic faith and the Anglican /church of Ireland faith,”
How is this different to the kindness, help and understanding from the teachers in non-RC schools?
Don’t know as i never went to a state school or protestant school , but i did experience as i said before a lot of bigotry and hate from the non catholic / orange order community as they abused our community for a long 50+ years , and through all of that i was always taught by my teachers and my parents tolerance and respect of others , but not subjection by the other, on the other from what ever background ,
i did not at any time in my lifetime ever see a nationalist or republican march behave as the orange bands and orange marchers have done and still do outside catholic churches ( St Particks Donegal street , my home parish ), or as they passed our churches raised the sash and beat their drums louder i have never seen a nationalist band or march parade in an area where they are not wanted nor have i ever witnessed any member of the protestant clergy being abused or attacked but i have witnessed the opposite when it came to our priests and nuns , and Fr Bradley my parish priest being one of them ( hot tar thrown in his face and body as he stood outside St Patricks) or the Nuns from the mater hospital being spat at on the Crumlin road , or where we had to get special busses to bring us down the Antrim Road from St Patrick’s Collage in order to ensure we got home safely. That kind of behaviour starts in the home and the orange halls all over the north ,where hate and bigotry is the order of the day
All children are born equal , and innocent , but its the environment that they are reared in that will determine the path of their lives that is the responsibility of parents and guardians and not a school teacher or any school
I always thank god for my parents and my teachers for instilling in me the moral compass that I and other members of my family have lived by , justice tolerance , equality respect for self,/ community and respect for/of others
“I do not accept Mr Neeson’s idea that Integrated schools have more to offer in the north of Ireland in resolving the political and community divisions here.”
Why not?
“I do not know what school Mr Neeson attended but he does not seem to appreciate the importance of Catholic schools in the life of the Church.”
I imagine he’s more concerned about society at large rather than the life of the Church.
“He does not recognise their role in helping to educate children in the Catholic faith and their contribution in bringing about a more integrated society at home and a more peaceful caring and integrated world.”
I’m sure he does recognise their role in helping to educate children in the Roman Catholic faith, but neither believes this is not the role of state-funded schools, or believes this can be done in an integrated setting.
Where is the evidence that segregated religious schools bring about more integrated society or peaceful world?
“He does not seem to appreciate that Catholic parents the world over opt to send their children to Catholic schools to avail of Catholic education and to experience the Catholic ethos of respect, tolerance and compassion.”
All.parents send their children to schools to experience an ethos of respect, tolerance and compassion. This is not a peculiarly Roman Catholic ethos.
“Catholic schools offer Catholics and others who so desire, the help and support they need to be kind and caring people in a kind and caring environment.”
So.do all schools. Again this is not distinctly Roman Catholic.
“They help young people to grow in maturity and tolerance.”
So do all schools.
“They help children to celebrate with joy the key moments in their lives and to join with others in the celebration of the Eucharist.”
Members of other faiths are able to celebrate the Eucharist without the existence of segregated denominational schools.
“There is a mistaken notion that if there were no denominational schools young people in the north would grow up with a better understanding of one another. There have always been and there are nowadays many opportunities for young people to mix and there is much inter-schools activity.”
If you agree that mixing is good why not doit at school, where children spend most time? What are you afraid of?
“It must be recognised that ours is a political problem that needs a political solution – a solution that accepts the reality of a history of colonial domination. Until that is dealt with by the colonial power then integrating children in schools will not make much difference.”
Why not? How do you know?
“Pope Francis has shown the world that the Catholic way of life, inspired by the Scriptures and by the witness of countless people has much to say to the world today about peace and justice. It has much to offer young people to help them in their lives and in their relationships. Pope Francis likes to show the importance of being kind, respectful, loving and forgiving. These human qualities are the necessary foundation for any civilised society. Catholic schools, at their best, will always promote these values both in the school and in society.”
These qualities are no different to the qualities espoused by other Christian denominations
I support integrated education for those who want it.
I believe this is a dig at the Catholic faith as opposed to education.
As far as my own education is concerned I was never taught bigotry towards Protestants or indeed any Faith. In fairness I do not believe Protestant schools teach bigotry either.
The bigotry and sectarianism destroying these Six Counties is taught in the home.
Our education system is second to none and I believe the Catholic system is the better in results.
We realised in the Fifties that education was the best way to get a job and spurred us on to further education.
I say again bigotry is taught in the HOME
Jim
Bigotry may well not be actually taught in any segregated school but can you not see that keeping children separate is subliminally reinforcing difference?.
And difference breeds fear and hatred.
You say bigotry is taught at home.
Could you then explain the following observation from my own experience:
I went to a state/prod school. Bands were a large part of the culture. A person’s cool factor could be determined by their marching band of choice.
Myself and most of my friends were involved with various types of bands to various degrees.
My siblings went to a mixed school, they had nothing to do with flute bands.
Same with my cousins.
My friends who went from the prod school to the mixed school for a levels soon reduced their involvement in the band scene.
Can you explain this?
I have absolutely no experience of Integrated Education as it functions in the Six Counties. However, I taught in the non-denominational sector for 30 years and for nearly twenty of those , I was a headteacher in two separate schools. The underlying message of this piece is that Catholic schools have a prerogative in establishing moral standards in education; by moral standards I mean things such as tolerance, sense of justice, recognising and promoting equality – those things which make society a better place for all of us. The generality ‘the need to be caring people in a kind and caring environment’ is something that I would have recognised in the delivery of the curriculum by the colleagues with whom I worked. Neeson would probably share my failure to appreciate the logic in Joe’s assertion in paragraph two that a more integrated society may be achieved by separating children from their neighbourhood peers for educational purposes.
I attended a Catholic grammar school in Derry. While I am grateful for much of the teaching that I received there, it was a very harsh regime. While I experienced no overt sectarianism, there were occasional undercurrents of distrust of all ideas from non-catholic sources. I received one report where the headteacher wrote that I had been frequently seen in ‘ bad company’. Translated , this meant that some of my friends were not Catholics. That obscene hegemony over the lives of young learners was abhorrent to me even then. More pernicious, some of the staff had great difficulty coming to terms with the outcomes of the 11+ and the arrival in their classrooms of children from working class backgrounds. They were much more at home with the offspring of the business and professional class and their prejudices were made very apparent to us.
There is a rhinoceros standing in the room with the elephant. From the way I read the crusade for integrated education as a means of blaming RC schools for the sectarian strife here. As a pupil in a RC school and then a teacher in one for 30 Yrs I don’t recognise this description of Catholic education. There were prayers and religious objects on the Walls but there was never any politics trying to convince children one way or the other with regard to Irish politics.
All the while that this push for inetegrated education is going on, the advocates and the politicians ignore the sectarian housing estates. The estates that Catholics would not be allowed to live in. Ah, you say, that’s the working classes. But it’s not. How many of us have had the experience of buying a house in a ‘nice’ estate that is almost exclusively non Catholic and seeing the for sale signs going up in an almost ripple effect so that the religious composition of the estate is flipped within a few years.
There is the problem. The sectarianism is endemic in the homes. Yet here we have an attempt at social engineering being foist on the schools, ignoring the fact the social engineering using comprehensive schools in Britain has failed to deliver any real change.
“There is the problem. The sectarianism is endemic in the homes. Yet here we have an attempt at social engineering being foist on the schools, ignoring the fact the social engineering using comprehensive schools in Britain has failed to deliver any real change.”
Maybe if those sectarian Protestants had met and befriended Catholics during their school days they’d be less inclined to view them with suspicion when they’re adults?
Zigactly MT, how do people not see this?
PJ
I think here you’re falling into the pit of misframing the argument.
People are not blaming Catholic schools per se.
What they are doing is pointing out that the current set-up though lauded by advocates as ‘choice’ it is in fact a reflex of sorts:
If you’re born into a Catholic family you without question send the child to a Catholic school, vice-versa with Protestants.
It’s only when integrated education is on offer does ‘choice’ really come into it because prior to that once you’re 4 years old you’re automatically sorted and shipped off to the relevant school depending on which foot you kick with.
So, to run with your example of a soon to be mixed estate, well, how mixed is it really when the kids will have next to nothing to do with each other literally on account of where they were baptised.
How is that NOT a damaging set up?
And wrt sectarianism being endemic in homes, if that’s the core reason then could you answer the question I posted earlier:
“I went to a state/prod school. Bands were a large part of the culture. A person’s cool factor could be determined by their marching band of choice.
Myself and most of my friends were involved with various types of bands to various degrees.
My siblings went to a mixed school, they had nothing to do with flute bands.
Same with my cousins.
My friends who went from the prod school to the mixed school for a levels soon reduced their involvement in the band scene.
Can you explain this?”
How many integrated schools offer classes in the Irish language, or promote Gaelic games and culture?
It was not that long ago that an integrated school in Omagh had to placate parents who complained that the sports kit had an O’Neill’s logo so much for inclusivity.
Some schools changed to integrated status just to avoid closure, but just how integrated would a school in Carrickfergus for example be?
By all means let parents chose the school that they wish their children to go to, but Catholic schools were and are not the reason for the situation in the North nor is integrated schooling a panacea for the same problems; rather point the finger at the real reasons this place became what it is, bigotry and discrimination.
I do not want a return to the times were our children our taught to be good little British boys or girls, or to be brainwashed into having a manufactured “Northern Irish” identity and seeing the rest of Ireland as somewhat foreign and distant.
If anyone wants to send their child to an integrated school let them do so but judging my numbers alone most people of a Catholic background, whether they practise or not, are more than happy to continue to send their children to Catholic schools. All the propaganda can’t change those facts.
“How many integrated schools offer classes in the Irish language, or promote Gaelic games and culture?”
I’d imagine at secondary level most, if not all of them.
“Some schools changed to integrated status just to avoid closure, but just how integrated would a school in Carrickfergus for example be?”
More integrated than either a Catholic school or controlled school in the same area.
“I do not want a return to the times were our children our taught to be good little British boys or girls, or to be brainwashed into having a manufactured “Northern Irish” identity and seeing the rest of Ireland as somewhat foreign and distant.”
When was this?
“How many integrated schools offer classes in the Irish language, or promote Gaelic games and culture?”
A few, an ever increasing number at that.
“It was not that long ago that an integrated school in Omagh had to placate parents who complained that the sports kit had an O’Neill’s logo so much for inclusivity.”
And it’ll be ever the case as long as people confuse Irish culture with Irish nationalism. Many (if not most) can’t even tell the difference.
“Some schools changed to integrated status just to avoid closure, but just how integrated would a school in Carrickfergus for example be?”
Um, how integrated do you want them to be? How Catholic would a Catholic school in Bangor be?
“By all means let parents chose the school that they wish their children to go to, but Catholic schools were and are not the reason for the situation in the North nor is integrated schooling a panacea for the same problems; rather point the finger at the real reasons this place became what it is, bigotry and discrimination.”
Bigotry comes from ignorance. How bigoted would the place be if all the schools were integrated or if all the schools were Catholic controlled?
“I do not want a return to the times were our children our taught to be good little British boys or girls, or to be brainwashed into having a manufactured “Northern Irish” identity and seeing the rest of Ireland as somewhat foreign and distant.”
Brainwashing. I see. I would ask you to clarify this but the local propaganda minister has decreed that we all need a Sodium Peothental top up…
“If anyone wants to send their child to an integrated school let them do so but judging my numbers alone most people of a Catholic background, whether they practise or not, are more than happy to continue to send their children to Catholic schools. All the propaganda can’t change those facts.”
Right. So, how about we close all the integrated and state schools and send them to Catholic schools instead? What do ye say?
what goods integrating them when you have to explain to the kids they cant go into certain areas in belfast after school.especially the older ones.maybe they meet in the city centre,who knows.
Bigotry is perpetuated by ignorance and ignorance breeds fear. Therefore you’ll hear non-Catholic people talk down their sleeves about Catholics praying to statues etc, as if it is all a form of superstition, with references to nik naks and tat abounding. This is all driven by a lack of knowledge and education. At my catholic school, we were taught to respect our Protestant neighbours and look across to them with regard, not look down on them with disdain. Again I’d refer people to McAleese’s depressing references to teaching in some non-Catholic families and schools. It’s that old irrational fear again.
Freddie
I confess myself to be somewhat confused.
Are you saying there is no bigotry in the Catholic community?
Certainly there is bigotry in Catholic areas but not to the extent in the Unionist community.
I differentiate between Protestant and Unionist.
After nearly a century of being treated as lower than second class some do feel bigoted.
But it is not as as rampant. Look how the Protestants are treated in the Free State where everyone is treated evenly.Note how many Leaders, politicians,Garda and Civil Servants are from the Protestant Faith. It is Unionism and all its Fascist traits, not the religion that cause the trouble.
Jim
“Certainly there is bigotry in Catholic areas but not to the extent in the Unionist community.”
Ah, the old, ‘not as bad as them’…
“Note how many Leaders, politicians,Garda and Civil Servants are from the Protestant Faith.”
Didn’t you just differentiate between Protestant and Unionist?
” It is Unionism and all its Fascist traits…”
Care to elaborate?
I fail so see how this moves us on any.
“At my catholic school, we were taught to respect our Protestant neighbours and look across to them with regard, not look down on them with disdain.”
Just so long as you don’t go to school with them.
At my state school we were taught to respect all faiths too (being multi denominational as state schools are, an oft overlooked fact for some reason) yet some people didn’t. That’s what teenagers (don’t) do.
Bigotry comes from not knowing the people about whom you speak. The best way to do this is to separate kids at 4 years old and educate them differently till they’re 18.
You see, Freddie, I remember standing in a Catholic church in a Northern Irish Convent (during the years of the Troubles) learning about the Stations of the Cross as they were explained to me by ones of the nuns.
And why was I there? Because my father thought it worthwhile for his Protestant children to visit one of his friends (aforesaid nun) and learn from others.
Liam Neeson went to St Patrick’s Secondary Intermediate School on the Broughshane Road in Ballymena ( now called St Patrick’s College), so he did get a Catholic education. The current Celtic manager, Brendan Rodgers is also a former pupil. Slemish College, the integrated secondary school in Ballymena, has been successful and recently announced that it was expanding to over 800 pupils, having got a £3 million grant to improve sporting facilities (including Gaelic Football), it was the first purpose-built integrated school in N.I.. Liam Neeson is a strong supporter of the school and features on their website visiting the school in March 2016.
There is no doubt that Catholic schools are successful in terms of exam results, etc, but the primary purpose of any church-run school system is to maintain the influence and continued existence of that church, by turning out what it hopes will be faithful adherents of that church.
Thanks PF, I believe there are plenty of exceptions to every rule. In general though, Catholics don’t fear Protestantism, whereas I think Protestants are often raised on a depressing diet of mistrust. This mistrust is not preserved for Catholics, with it being seen in attitudes towards, refugees, Europe, blacks, Islam, gays, science etc. A different world view perhaps?
mistrust…take it you never lived beside the barricade.
Hi Freddie
” whereas I think Protestants are often raised on a depressing diet of mistrust. ”
What are your reasons for this?
It’s just that as I visit this website I am exposed to a “depressing diet” assumptions (general rules) that almost every Protestant is something of a bigot. It would be interesting to know why you think this.
Re Protestant bigotry. I have the impression via the media that Protestants like to burn Polish flags on giant piles of tyres. They also like to drive out foreigners from HE properties like the Jamaican woman in Rathcoole a few years back or the Somali family in Nelson Drive a week or so back. The reason that sectarian ghettoes exist is because of how the franchise was organized until the 70s. When the current nationalist majority becomes evident electorally (apart from Protestants like Basil McCrea setting up ‘nonsectarian’ parties like NI21), I don’t believe that there will be the same kind of discrimination as before, but in reverse. In any case, if you are not a bigot, you need to evidence that. For example, psni response times are exceedingly slow when asked to perform in nationalist areas.
So you watch TV and read the papers?
You should get out more often.
Peter, I worked in a portadown factory for 11 years, and I can tell you that protestants were systematically brought up with sectarian bigotry to the extent it was the norm.
Sectarian discrimination in the workplace was rife then. It was absolutely normal to call all workers out to meet under the union flag to discuss the orange march at drumcree not being allowed to walk garvaghy.
I was told to my face that it was ok, I didn’t have to come as if it was somehow doing me a favour or being respectful.
Every summer it was a hate filled cess pit environment.
It did not even compute that this was somehow the wrong thing to be doing or bad behaviour.
I have known many protestants very well and I know a great deal about their community.
The majority of working class protestants were brought up to believe Catholics were sub human to various degrees and certainly of less worth than the british protestant community. If they liked a catholic, they would come out and say, you should have been a protestant right to someone’s face. It was simply not acceptable to mingle with Catholics.
It was instilled that a catholic nationalist led country would be bad for protestants and had to be opposed at all costs, whether for financial or cultural reasons to unadulterated outright hatred.
Things have changed a great deal since then, especially in the younger generations, it is simply night and day a different place today.
But if you are trying to say the protestant community has completely moved away from the inbred sectarianism and bigotry then I am sorry but i don’t believe that for a second.
There is no way the DUP and UUP could stand shoulder to shoulder with still active (according to the PSNI) loyalist paramilitaries and still get a majority support electorally if this discrimination was as far gone as you say.
You may like to put that view out there, but the behaviour espoused by the elected representatives of unionism is a more accurate reflection of your community than that of a handful of bloggers.
You only need to look at facebook and social media to see how deeply the hatred remains. As a result, there are a great number of willie frazer types out there. Can you imagine the woman crying no surrender through the broken glass pane?
As far as I can see, there is as yet still no leadership within unionism calling for a change in this attitude whereas Sinn Fein have spent nearly two decades promoting positive leadership and end to paramilitarism, and it was the right thing to do, despite the insults, despite the arrogance, the stench, the put downs and the abuse of veto.
We have now reached the end of the line. There is no longer any track for unionism to catch up on and it will take something very impressive to build a new one to give unionism the opportunity to redeem itself.
Joe – I taught in an interested school for a number of years. During weekly school assemblies Protestant Ministers used to attend and lead these. I asked the dreaded question – why was the Catholic Church not represented in these assemblies? The Principal told me quite simply “they have been invited and refused to attend.” In my time at that school – 7 years, not one member of the Catholic clergy crossed the doors of the school – Is this the case, Joe on a wider scale? What’s the Catholic Churches views on integrated education? Do they agree or disagree with it?
On a personal note, I’ve taught in all 3 sectors – state, Catholic and intergrated. By far I prefer the integrated approach and feel is this place has any chance of moving forward, the answer lies in integrated education – segregation from an early age only serves to allow segregation to prosper.
TheHist, I would like to see a cap on the number of faith based schools, certainly the majority should be state run.
I would also like to see all religious preferences removed from the education system altogether and the positive principals of all faiths taught instead.
Any religion should be allowed to organise with the school for events such as communion or any jewish or muslim ceremony if there is need.
I have said a few times, I would like to see the catholic church hand these estates over to the Irish state throughout all of Ireland as part of a unification process as a sign of good will.
If they refuse, we should build new larger state schools and do away with the catholic schools over time by limiting public funding to the cap for all faith schools.
If they refuse, I would then also like to see church of Ireland become the predominant faith in Ireland.
*integrated
I don’t for one minute think that all Protestants are bigots, PF. For a start there appears to be a big difference in the world views of NI Protestants and English Protestants. I’ll warrant I’d have much more in common with my English neighbours in terms of my world view than you’re average Orangeman. Unfortunately Orangemen and their restricted world views seem to have a disproportionate grip over the actions and beliefs of the standard unionist politician. Maybe I’m wrong on all of this. Just a perception maybe. F
Thanks, Freddie. (and this is about understanding one another)
I think what I’m getting at, and I had a similar conversation about the use of the term ‘Unionist’ (which is not synonymous with Protestant), is the overuse of general descriptions of ‘my’ community, which tend towards the stereotypical and negative.
For example, when you say, “At my catholic school, we were taught to respect our Protestant neighbours and look across to them with regard, not look down on them with disdain.” There appears to be an unspoken, yet clear, implication.
When you say, ” I believe there are plenty of exceptions to every rule.” or “In general though, Catholics don’t fear Protestantism, whereas I think Protestants are often raised on a depressing diet of mistrust.”
These are clearly and inexplicably negative.
And ‘we’ are, apparently, mistrusting of, “refugees, Europe, blacks, Islam, gays, science etc”.
And I’m really not sure how the perpetuation of such stereotypes is helpful.
I live in the Protestant (Unionist) community, and it is much, much broader than that.
And I do wish there was greater awareness and balance on this site.
Indeed, I’d expect more of the blog owner, given that he is not a stupid man.
I personally object to falling into the trap of tarring all those of a Protestant persuasion with the same brush as those of the DUP. I have met quite a few Protestants over the years, and particularly the last 5 yrs or so, and we have got on well with the banter and all that. Recently our son introduced us to his new girlfriend. A nicer, kinder ad polite young woman you’ll ever meet. This girl is from a strong unionist area of my locality and granted there was a degree of nervousness when she entered our home for the first time, what with The Proclaimation taking pride of place in our house! Thankfully we didn’t bite her nor indeed she bite us and although we don’t talk politics much I would safely say we(my family and her) get on very well. She recently attended a family wedding and I would say she was pleasantly surprised when she learnt we aren’t all rabid Catholics.
I also have a few friends in similar circumstances and and we all concur that this is a real positive. That’s why I personally believe allowing this upcoming election to fall in to trench politics is a mistake. The unionist community and indeed the Protestant community must be allowed to vote with their heads rather than being forced to vote with their heart.
We are inclined to judge the Protestant Unionist community by the dinosaurs they vote for. How else can you do it? The same as ‘all Catholics are terrorist supporters. Look who they vote for’.
fiosrach
“The same as ‘all Catholics are terrorist supporters. Look who they vote for’.”
Given that I haven’t read any ‘unionist’ on this website making that generalisation (although I’m quite sure there are those that do), and given that no one has to make that kind of generalisation, and given that neither all Protestants or all Catholics are much anything, there is no need for lazy assumptions, especially after it has been pointed out.
“How else can you do it?”
You talk to people as they go about their everyday lives, and you find out more about them as you go along. We can all do that.
Politics is a necessary evil.
What I have found,PF, in my reasonably wide association with Protestants is that there are no more friendly, helpful, generous people. Dependable and honest. Then they vote DUP in massive numbers. This is a fact not an opinion. So what do we deduce from this? Forget about themins and how they vote. Just look at the unionists. I think nationalists are more progressive and open to change but then I would, wouldn’t I?
And, fiosrach, besides the reasons why anyone might vote for any party, I have already established, on the this website, the figures which demonstrate that comparatively few Protestants vote DUP.
You will find those figures ( i.e. actual recorded facts, rather than your experiences cited as facts) here:
http://www.judecollins.com/2017/01/enough-enough-david-steenson/
If I cut to the chase the conclusion from those figures is:
“And on this basis the DUPe represent about one fifth of unionists.”
Follow the link and you’ll see what else I wrote.
But if you prefer, you can continue with your subjective stereotyping of an entire community – I mean, no one’s stopping you.
Although you did say you were open to change, so may be you will 🙂
Are the other four fifths dummies? How many new parties come out – or try to come out of the unionist community? Look at the number of weirdos that we throw up . But at least we try.
That’s right, fiosrach, when your don’t have a credible answer, just toss out an insult.
churn them out as sheep is the idea.religion should be banned in schools all it does is waste time on other subjects in the hope they will hook a few oul idiots.