The national flag of Ireland is a tricolour of green, white and orange. The flag is twice as wide as it is high. The three colours are of equal size and the green goes next to the flagstaff. The flag was first introduced by Thomas Francis Meagher in 1848 who based it on French tricolour.
The green represents the older Gaelic tradition while the orange represents the supporters of William of Orange. The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between the ‘Orange’ and the ‘Green’.
It was not until the Rising of 1916, when it was raised above the General Post Office in Dublin, that the tricolour came to be regarded as the national flag.
It is now enshrined in the Constitution of Ireland.
Seeing the national flag of Ireland draped over the coffin of Martin McGuinness, I wondered has ever its true meaning been so well reflected in the life of any individual?
No-one can deny that Ireland has had a troubled history, plagued with conflict between the forces of orange and green.
Many conflicts have been fought and many lives taken or destroyed over the centuries.
The meaning behind the flag in the mind of Thomas Francis Meagher was to symbolise lasting peace between our people who share those two traditions.
Thomas Meagher produced the symbol, but I cannot think of anyone who has done so much to actually bring about a lasting truce between the ‘Orange’ and the ‘Green’ than Martin McGuinness.
I understand many will choose to focus on the conflict than the efforts at ending it, on the lives that were lost more than those that he saved, but it has always been easier to promote conflict and division than it is to promote peace and reconciliation.
In the last third of his life, Martin was dedicated to building peace and reconciliation and finally Ireland has produced an individual, worthy of the true meaning behind the national flag of Ireland.
Ireland must now be reborn in the image of peace and reconciliation, which is the real legacy Martin has left for us.
Go raibh mile maith agat Martin
Ref:
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/Historical_Information/The_National_Flag/
Your last article involved you advocating for Britain to take over all of Ireland once again and now you’re writing an article praising a man who opposed that and a flag which would have no place in the Ireland you previously vouched for. It really is unique that someone’s political pendulum can swing between two extremes in such a short space of time. But maybe it’s why people aren’t taking you particularly seriously..
“Your last article involved you advocating for Britain to take over all of Ireland once again”
I doubt that’s accurate.
Personally I’m quite prepared to take Jessica seriously; she’s one of the few Republican’s on this site prepared to listen to unionists, whatever else she thinks of us.
You are entitled to hold whatever opinion you like of me Donal.
But I have never advocated for Britain to take over all of Ireland once again.
Brexit may indeed lead to a reformed and more federal UK and it will be up to the people of Ireland to decide whether unity is with the EU, as part of a reformed UK or we go it alone.
Eventually we will have to choose one of those options.
Until we discuss all three in more detail, I don’t see why it should be surprising to you that it might be difficult to decide which is in our best interests and I acknowledge that various acts have changed my views.
My bottom line principal is that it is a democratic decision to be made by the Irish people as a whole and alone on the future of Ireland.
Inside that principal, I am very flexible in what that future should look like.
I think we have seen enough intransigence and its consequences, don’t you?
Jessica? What’s the name of this successful and dynamic business you keep telling us all about? I’m interested in knowing the motivation between all your grand economic perspectives, assuming it exists of course.
PF – I don’t think it’s republican at all to advocate that Britain recolonises Ireland and usurps the sovereignty of the Irish people. I’d love to know what sort of republicanism you’re thinking of. Jessica, in reality, is a right-wing Redmondite who cares more about the “needs of business” than the needs of ordinary Irish people. Jessica one thing I am interested in is what’s the name of this business venture of yours that you keep mentioning in every comment? Does it have a website?
“PF – I don’t think it’s republican at all to advocate that Britain recolonises Ireland and usurps the sovereignty of the Irish people”
Again, Donal, Jessica hasn’t said that. She has made abundantly clear what she thinks and any reference to Britain and Ireland has never had anything to usurping the sovereignty of the Irish people.
If you can direct me to where she has said this, I’ll be glad to read it, but bottom line, you’re wrong about this.
Donal reading through a few of your comments I’m detecting that your view of politics and economics seems to centre around a notion of “class war” between the bosses and the workers. In one post you said that the workers will always win since they have the numbers.
I find this view very narrow and short sighted. The business community and the working class shouldn’t be at “war” with each other, they should and need to have a symbiotic relationship. The business community need the workers to provide the labour to power their businesses. The workers require individuals of the business community who have the ideas and innovations, along with the capital and mostly importantly the guts to risk that capital in order to create and grow those businesses.
Without the business community the workers don’t have jobs, without the workers businessmen don’t have the labour to power their businesses. Now I admit there must be safeguards put in place by government to ensure exploitative bosses and militant workers don’t abuse there positions, but to set your socioeconomic view as a battle between classes seems to only be a recipe for stifling all dynamism in a countries economy.
Your views seem fairly hard left wing, which is probably a long way off where the ROI is at the moment. It also seems applied by comments that you have some kind of official capacity in SF, although I’m unsure if this is true or not?
So my question is are these Trotskyite policy ideas you seem to have official SF policy? It’s certainly further to the left than they seem to portray themselves.
Scott, Martin McGuinness spent many many months of his time in office along with Peter Robinson and even Arlene Foster, meeting with the worlds leaders and corporate businesses encouraging them to invest and create jobs in Northern Ireland. In fact, when he had to call off his trip to China which was also to discuss business links, the Chinese were very concerned about his not being present as it is very important for them to get to know the leaders they do business with and they had got to know Martin so well and were keen to do business with him and they did not yet know Arlene.
These meetings were not to discuss socialism in Ireland, but how a capitalism embracing Ireland would be a good choice for them to invest their money in, how Sinn Fein as part of the Stormont government could assist them in bringing their investment and getting return over a long term which would mean convincing them that the political relationship would remain stable. I assure you that both the DUP and Sinn Fein were singing from the same hymn sheet in all those talks.
Ireland will always be a capitalist country because our people are opportunists and even from the gutter have always looked to the stars.
At the same time we will always be a socialist country, because our people are naturally compassionate and eager to help others in times of need and we are generous in nature.
Employees in Ireland are not slaves and the majority of employers are good people.
The people of west Belfast want and desperately need jobs and investment in their areas, they would care not one bit whether the jobs are private sector or public sector.
The reality is, the more jobs and investment Sinn Fein bring to those areas, and in particular the A5 and A6 roads then the greater the satisfaction will be and the more their electoral support base will grow.
Reunification will also cost a lot of money. It will be paid for through capitalism like it or not, that is the truth.
Jessica I largely agree but Donal is singing a diffrent tune. He seems to say that SF stand for a far more hardline Marxist position. So who’s correct about SF position? You are Donal?
Did you join SF? I know you said you were canvassing for them but if you joined I’m sure you could find out? It’s pretty important stuff.
I believe the UK is currently a more socialist country with its universal healthcare etc.
That should have read
“You or Donal”
For what it’s worth, my order of preference is:
A United Ireland in a United Kingdom
A United Ireland in a Federal British and Irish Isles
A United Kingdom of GB and NI
A United Kingdom with power devolved to the regions
A United Federal Provincial Ireland
A self governing independent United Ireland
An Independent NI (although anyone with half a brain could see this is a bad idea)
and lastly, and further down the list than even an Independent NI, which tells you how much I dislike the idea, a United Ireland in an EU, because at that point the concept of an Irish nation will mean ‘diddly squat’.
PF,
quite an array of choices you present us with! But you have missed out on the very obvious choice for the people of this island.
A New united sovereign independent Republic of the 32 counties of Ireland. A country of Equals – a new constitution and with a new socialist government in the Dáil.
Representative of ALL the people and all minorities. A secular society free from all religious interference in all civic matters. Freedom of choice, religion, conscience and education.
This within the membership of the European Union.
I have to tell you that your ‘United Kingdom’ is no more. It is over – no matter how you spin it.
As my children advise me,now forgive me if I offer you the same advice –
“Daddy, build a bridge, get over it and move on”
Hi Jack
The “New united sovereign independent Republic of the 32 counties of Ireland”, you mention is included under my, “self governing independent United Ireland”.
You seem to prefer, however, that such a place be “within the membership of the European Union”; but I fail to see how Ireland could be a “sovereign independent Republic” and a member of the “European Union” at the same time.
And while I tend to agree with you that the United Kingdom is no more, or, at the very least, on very shaky ground, I must also suggest to you that while you hold on to an EU, the concept of a sovereign independent Ireland is also no more.
One cannot be both “sovereign” and controlled by unelected European bankers and administrators.
Would it be a problem for you Donal if I would prefer to keep that private?
No Jessica but I think it just goes to confirm what most people already suspect that you don’t know the first thing about business or economics, and that this business venture you’re always bragging about in reality does not exist.
And for the other readers, I’m definitely not a Marxist. I believe in a mixed economy over a market economy – the same sort of economy which Harold Wilson’s government presided over. Hardly Marxist to acknowledge that more people work than own real capital.
I think Donal that myself and Jessica agree that we need a mixed economy as you do. Nobody I think is advocating full privatisation of every state service.
The question is though what degree do you want the mix to be. More reliance on the state or a stronger focus on using the private sector?
My own position is that healthcare should be fully universal, free to everyone and fully state controlled. That does not however rule out the private sector completely as there is probably specialist services that could be delivered by private companies if it proved unviable for the public sector to do them. Also the private sector could be used to fill in the holes were the public sector comes up short until there services are able catch up.
In education I believe it should be fully provided by the state, free including the scrapping of tuition fees and a full integration of schooling.
Social housing should be kept for people who are unable to buy, but people should be encouraged to buy there own property as it enhances pride in areas and provides long term financial security. I would support right to buy for people in social housing, but it must be coupled with a aggressive building program to replace housing stock lost.
Just a few of my rambling thoughts.
I am quite content for you to believe that if you choose Donal and I certainly never intended it to come across as bragging.
You say you are not a Marxist but you then come out with words which would easily be associated with Marxism.
Nationalisation of businesses and using NAMA as an example of how it might work would frighten investment out of any state and such talk should be avoided.
Limiting wages to an average industrial wage will result in the most talented of our people leaving these shores and we don’t want more of our children leaving, we want Ireland to have the employment opportunities for more to come home.
I don’t think you have the slightest idea what Marxism is and you also haven’t the slightest idea as to how the Irish constitution works – it guarantees property rights. So please don’t tell me that I am a Marxist when you do NOT know what you are talking about. A Marxist state within the EU isn’t even remotely possible.
It goes to show how economically illiterate you are Jessica – Ted Heath’s Tory government nationalised Rolls Royce to save and create jobs; Churchill’s government nationalised the BBC. I think they were both capitalist governments. You really need to stop lecturing people on this as though you know anything about how the public and private sectors operate in reality, your views are obscure.
I agree Scott, health in particular should remain fully state controlled.
In relation to how it should be operated. In my eyes it is not currently fit for purpose. Had I not had private cover through work, I would not be alive today.
There first of all must be sufficient money pumped into it to make it fit for purpose no matter what.
There is no point crying that private costs more if the public service is not worth having because it is so under resourced.
Once the services are working, we can then decide whether some sort of mixed solution involving private sector can reduce costs or improve services. The most important thing is that people receive proper care.
In relation to education. I think the state should determine the school curriculum, there should be no primary school testing, a limit on the number of religious based schools that can be funded by the state,
I would not a blanket free tuition fees, but operate a subsidy based system, where important skills such as doctors, nurses can be free while they are in short supply and badly needed.
Where skills are in abundance, then the subsidy is reduced right up to zero for stupid degrees such as on the Beatles which should not receive any state support for but I believe exist as an option though only from listening to the radio I admit,
The state should invest in social housing to meet demand and also to boost the economy when the economy slows.
Rent should be capped and no landlord should be able to charge for housing anywhere near the repayment value for their loan to buy the property in the first place.
House price increases should be very slow, buying a house should be a long term investment not a means of making money.
It should be illegal for anyone to take part in government if they are a landlord. It should be a written agreement for anyone to stand for election.
This is the greatest cause of corruption in government within Ireland and it is so important this happens.
I never said you were a Marxist Donal.
I said the words you used could be linked to Marxism and I gave examples which you still choose to ignore.
“A Marxist state within the EU isn’t even remotely possible.”
The EU is irrelevant, there is little support for the left in Ireland never mind Marxism.
You are for Ireland remaining in the EU then?
“It goes to show how economically illiterate you are Jessica”
I am certain that I am not economically illiterate, though if we are going to be personal I could just as easily say I dislike the words you use. They sound to me more like you read a book and are regurgitating phrases you never really understood just to sound good.
I speak off the top of my head and I admit only reading such literature on rare occasions.
I could go years without reading anything, and then read the whole economic report on Irish reunification from canada in one night from a link posted on Judes site.
That is just the way I am. I would be first to accept that I am a strange and unusual person – so what?
“Ted Heath’s Tory government nationalised Rolls Royce to save and create jobs; Churchill’s government nationalised the BBC.”
Are you now suggesting that only failed businesses should be nationalised to save jobs when there is no other alternative?
I would be against governments having connections to the media though.
“You really need to stop lecturing people on this as though you know anything about how the public and private sectors operate in reality, your views are obscure.”
I have been providing outsourced consultancy services to the public sector for 15 years, I can safely say I know something about how they operate though I have never meant to discuss them in that context, I am only ever giving my own opinion take it or leave it.
I do however know that over a 6 month period standing in as project manager in one of the councils here, there was never 1 week in that time there were no absentees on the team I was over which did surprise me and later annoy me. I also know they were paid for their time off and I know they would not get away with it in the private sector. I could say more but it is not my intention to put people down, only to say things could work better.
I have no idea if my views come cross as obscure.
It is quite possible that they do.
Jessica,
The NHS is not a failed entity in the economy yet it is nationalised and is also the most popular service within either the public or private sector. So, why should we not nationalise other entities to the benefit of the population? Especially when it is cheaper to own things in many instances than to let markets dominate them only for the public to have to subsidise them in other ways.
The fact that you’re ridiculing someone for reading books and knowing more facets than you speaks volumes about your suitability to actually provide “analyses” on the economy or political affairs. I really don’t know what type of “business consultant” that makes you but I wouldn’t be advising any of my clients to go anywhere near you or accept your commercial “expertise”.
The sort of views you advocate would induce a shock therapy into the local economy here rather like the one Mrs. Thatcher imposed on the industrial communities in Scotland, Wales and Northern England – and we know how that turned out; Decades of unemployment, heroin needles, crime and vice.
My economic views stem from a Christian outlook on life that everyone must have a job by right and a decent income, so that they may provide a decent life for themselves and their families. So to accuse me of being too academic about things isn’t quite on the ball. Pope Francis is saying the same sort of things after all.
My advice to you is to read A LOT more before you consider typing because you sound ridiculous in how often you change your views. If you stood for election here you would be walking away without your deposit back for sure. Even Connor Cruise O’Brien took longer than a week before switching from republicanism to unionism.
I am a technical consultant and I have never claimed to have any economic qualifications.
I never knew I needed any to comment on Judes site.
Donal, there is a community here, of good people who have a common interest in what is best for our country.
This is one of the few outlets where anti Sinn Fein propaganda is not the main, though there are a few unionist views and some sdlp supporters also.
I consider it more therapeutic, like a conversation in a pub which I rarely get to these days. I have no agenda other than being a strongly opinionated person but with a keen interest in listening to and hearing other opinions.
Believe me when I say, my economic arguments are not the main reason I would not be suitable in the slightest for standing for election.
If I am such an economic illiterate, why not try to focus less on the insults and more on the conversation.
What views have I expressed that would “induce a shock therapy into the local economy here”?
Making it illegal for TDs to be landlords?
Capping rent at greatly reduced rates??
Reducing house prices and controlling the rate of growth??
Making landlords more responsible for the condition of the houses they lease?
Adding multi property ownership taxes and empty property taxes.
Who would lose out?
Money lenders, banks, landlords.
Banks would have to start lending to businesses again to make money instead of screwing the public with easy loans, getting people up to their necks in debt.
Debt is a major issue in Ireland, I consider it to be at epidemic proportions and needs radical action to reverse it.
People would have more money to spend on other things than paying landlords loans to banks for them.
Landlords would have to pay more tax to keep multiple properties.
Businesses who invest in property to avoid paying tax would make less and pay more tax.
More houses would be sold at reduced rates allowing more working people get on the property ladder.
Where do you see the shock therapy into the local economy?
And now look at your contributions?
Doubling the minimum wage?
Yes, I can see that closing many businesses, making companies thinking twice about coming here, invest less.
That I can see causing a shock to the system.
What about nationalising private enterprise and using NAMA of all things to demonstrate it was doable.
Irelands debt is huge, bearing in mind there is a 24 billion drop in GDP coming down the road.
Such talk alone would put the wind up many people.
Clarify your thinking please Donal, I would say you have things the wrong way around and it is your ideals that would damage the economy.
“The NHS is not a failed entity in the economy yet it is nationalised and is also the most popular service within either the public or private sector. ”
The NHS is failing many people Donal.
Critical equipment is out of order for months at a time putting lives at risk.
Waiting lists grow longer and longer
People are being refused treatment over lack of resources
Staff are unhappy and services are at breaking point
More and more people who are paying their contributions to receive health care in the NHS are now having to take out an additional private policy or in many cases having to pay for private treatment to receive life changing diagnosis in a reasonable timeframe.
Perhaps before we start considering nationalising other businesses, we should focus on making the most important work for the people first.
Bury your head in the sand if you like, but that should be everyone’s first priority.
“So, why should we not nationalise other entities to the benefit of the population? Especially when it is cheaper to own things in many instances than to let markets dominate them only for the public to have to subsidise them in other ways. ”
It costs money which means borrowing which means huge debt burden which means austerity for one.
Another reason, the only way the state can make a failed business work is by breaking it up and throwing huge amounts of money at it.
Private businesses are often more enterprising and profitable, that is fact.
I am against letting businesses run the state, the state needs to determine how things work fairly so the people benefit from private businesses success.
The biggest problem here is corruption and usually within the state itself.
This is where it needs to be weeded out from.
You were advocating for wholesale privatisation of NHS jobs and services in a precious article and any time I mention the interests of workers you harp on about what you think the “needs of business” are, as being more important than human need. You were advocating all of Ireland rejoining the Union again, to be subject to British capitalism. And you’ve been a general advocate for wider use of markets generally as opposed to public ownership and subvention – how is that left wing?! You seem to think, by some of your sentiments, that the public sector should just commit suicide. The wages of the people in the public sector pay the wages of people like you via the money cycle.
I don’t think you get the implications of what you say. Why should ordinary people not enjoy part ownership of the businesses in which they work via their unions? It works in Germany.
“You were advocating for wholesale privatisation of NHS jobs and services in a precious article ”
I have never advocated wholesale privatisation of the NHS.
The NHS is inefficient and badly managed.
Some parts work excellently well, others have staff who care nothing about what they are doing and there is no accountability.
I would have no qualms whatsoever about outsourcing areas that fail to meet standards.
I am also interested in the Denmark model where the hospitals are state owned but all of the day to day management is outsourced to private companies.
“any time I mention the interests of workers you harp on about what you think the “needs of business” are, as being more important than human need.”
You would need to give me an example, I cannot think what I said against the interests of workers.
“You were advocating all of Ireland rejoining the Union again, to be subject to British capitalism. ”
British capitalism???
Once again, I have never advocated Ireland simply re-joining the UK.
When article 50 is finally triggered, Ireland will begin discussions which will inevitably lead to a decision on whether to back the UK or the EU.
Our relationship with the US will play a major part in that decision. It is also one of the reasons the south has decided to take a stronger interest in the north in recent times.
Reunification could be used as a means of leveraging money out of the EU in return for supporting the EU side in the coming trade war with the UK.
Ireland only recently became a net contributor where before we made money from being in the EU.
Now listen to this.
The EU will be trying to make an example of the UK for leaving. That will be in the form of a ridiculous breach of contract bill costing 10s of billions.
They would be idiots to pay it other than at a very low annual payment.
If they do and they end up in a trade war, backing the UK could offer an opportunity to get out without paying the same sort of bill to the EU.
The Irish people would ever agree to re-joining the UK except as an equal partner.
Imagine to save the UK, England caved and offered Scotland and Ireland a share in Sterling. All three banks would be partners based on their wealth.
We know the US are keen to maintain a free trade agreement with the UK, if in a federal UK, Ireland could be united with the bank of Ireland a share holder in sterling, not subordinate to england as before. Scotland would also be an equal partner.
I would have no problem with that and our unionist friends would be more likely to accept it and embrace the new Ireland we want for all of our people.
“The wages of the people in the public sector pay the wages of people like you via the money cycle. ”
That is absurdly wrong Donal
It is the other way around you will find.
The majority of tax revenue comes from domestic business, the rest from corporates.
I have to earn my own wages through bloody hard work and long hours. I own nothing to no one.
“Why should ordinary people not enjoy part ownership of the businesses in which they work via their unions? It works in Germany.”
Business owners are ordinary people Donal.
If you don’t see that then you are in no position to be commenting yourself.
Employees can be offered shares in the businesses in which they work, it is a strong motivator and usually the offer is accompanied with acceptance of low wages to help get the business in a position to be able to pay more wages later and increase its value.
This can pay off but you are agreeing to take on part of the risk.
If you mean a low share value spread amongst all, I have no real problem with this either but I would suggest people read the small print and don’t expect to have any real stake in the company. It simply doesn’t work that way.
Your replies are ever more patronising and ill-informed as they go along. I know a lot more about business owners and their day to day issues than you evidently do, and many of them tell me that life was much easier under the Keynesian model. Stop writing comments as though you are some sort of spokesperson for business owners when many of them would run a mile from you upon reading your poorly thought-out and worded comments. You’re no expert to be giving a sermon on the mount!
The NHS is inefficient because it is starved of funds, it wasn’t like that before when it got a 4% yearly increase in funding and there was a smaller population. I think if you go back a few articles you will clearly see your remark about preferring private sector workers in public hospitals – I think that’s called outsourced privatisation. I have relatives who work within the professions that make up the NHS and I can assure you that they put in a harder day’s work than you do sitting behind a desk.
You were advocating for an Irish Unionist Party in a prior article and saying you had no faith in any Irish party or politician. Which really makes people wonder why you bother writing for this blog when it has a nationalist and republican ethos as a form of alternative media. I don’t think you have the slightest clue what you’re on about to be frank with you and I think you need to get off your high horse and stop making clandestine snide remarks about people working in the public sector when many people who read this blog work there. You’re a bull in a literary China shop
You know Donal, I have had just about enough of your crap.
The only thing you have got right about me is that my views are my own and in no way populist.
I have never claimed to be an expert or a spokesperson for anyone, and my words are rarely sugar coated but blunt and just as I would speak to someone over a drink in the pub.
Now, you come on here and criticise PBP for putting forward poor economic arguments, so I challenged yours.
Not because I think I am some sort of expert, but to see what your words are made off.
In short, you are full of shit.
You don’t have the foggiest notion about what you are talking about and would rather criticise the person challenging you than talk about the matter at hand.
And that is fine, but why the bullshit?
“I know a lot more about business owners and their day to day issues than you evidently do, and many of them tell me that life was much easier under the Keynesian model.”
Bully for you, you know more about business owners than I do.
But do you seriously expect anyone to believe anyone talks like that?
Life was much easier under the “Keynesian model”
What a crock of shit.
Who the hell would talk like that?
The Keynesian model is simply the view that economies go through cycles of good time and bad times.
The core idea is prudence, to put money away when times are good and when the economy is struggling, use that money as a stimulus.
In other words a common sense approach and good financial management.
Why don’t you make an even bigger tit of yourself and tell us all when and where exactly these businesses told you life was much easier under the “Keynesian model”.
“The NHS is inefficient because it is starved of funds”
Yes it is, so where is the additional money going to come from to fix things if we are anti capitalism?
“I think if you go back a few articles you will clearly see your remark about preferring private sector workers in public hospitals – I think that’s called outsourced privatisation.”
Of course outsourcing will be from the private sector you muppet, that is the whole point.
How long do people have to put up with shit services before we throw in the towel and admit we need to give someone else a crack.
In my eyes we are already well over due such change.
“I have relatives who work within the professions that make up the NHS and I can assure you that they put in a harder day’s work than you do sitting behind a desk.”
More crap.
There is no way you could know what they do all day and you have not the slightest notion what I do all day.
“You were advocating for an Irish Unionist Party in a prior article and saying you had no faith in any Irish party or politician.”
What are you saying here.
You would have a problem with unionism starting an Irish Unionist Party seeking a united Ireland within the UK?
I would welcome that, very much so and they would be guaranteed my vote.
As for having no faith in any Irish party or politician.
I said I had no confidence that we had the capability to unite this islands two economies and would need the help of either the EU or the UK.
I still hold that view, especially so if a space cat like you is anywhere near the decision making process..
Jessica and Donal – if you can’t argue/discuss without piling on abuse, don’t argue/discuss.OK?
OK with me Jude